Nelson Funston

On May 8, 12:22*pm, Ramy wrote:
On May 8, 7:59*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

On May 8, 7:38 am, wrote:

Any Idea what caused the accident?

There are lots of ideas - but blind rumor and speculation at this
point don't help anything.

The best thing to do is take this as a reminder to ALWAYS be safety-
conscious when involved with a glider operation.

Take care,

--Noel

Now this will help us all avoid the same mistakes...
Aviation is full of unexplained fatal accidents which we can only
speculate, but at least we can hope to learn from those who survived.
I hope we don't need to wait for the NTSB report, we all know what
they worth. Or Thelen's accident reports in Soaring Magazine, which
from some reason he can never get the details from those involved, and
have to speculate.
I wish Nelson speedy recovery.

Ramy

No need to speculate anymore. According to the NTSB report it was
disconnected aileron
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...CA122& akey=1
I hope Nelson is recovering fine.

Ramy (who wonders why we had to wait for the NTSB report to learn
this)

At 18:17 03 June 2008, Ramy wrote:
On May 8, 12:22=A0pm, Ramy wrote:
On May 8, 7:59=A0am, "noel.wade" wrote:

On May 8, 7:38 am, wrote:

Any Idea what caused the accident?

There are lots of ideas - but blind rumor and speculation at this
point don't help anything.

The best thing to do is take this as a reminder to ALWAYS be safety-
conscious when involved with a glider operation.

Take care,

--Noel

Now this will help us all avoid the same mistakes...
Aviation is full of unexplained fatal accidents which we can only
speculate, but at least we can hope to learn from those who survived.
I hope we don't need to wait for the NTSB report, we all know what
they worth. Or Thelen's accident reports in Soaring Magazine, which
from some reason he can never get the details from those involved, and
have to speculate.
I wish Nelson speedy recovery.

Ramy

No need to speculate anymore. According to the NTSB report it was
disconnected aileron
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...=3DSEA08CA 1=
22&akey=3D1
I hope Nelson is recovering fine.

Ramy (who wonders why we had to wait for the NTSB report to learn
this)
I spent two hours with Nelson, last Wednesday. He is in a good mood and he
is progressing well. He would like to get out of the body brace, but that
will come with time. He is planning to go to Ephrata for the Region 8
contest. He is even planning to score the contest.
We will all be happy to have him there.

Jim

Ramy wrote:

I hope we don't need to wait for the NTSB report, we all know what
they worth. Or Thelen's accident reports in Soaring Magazine, which
from some reason he can never get the details from those involved, and
have to speculate.
I wish Nelson speedy recovery.

Ramy

No need to speculate anymore. According to the NTSB report it was
disconnected aileron
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...CA122& akey=1
I hope Nelson is recovering fine.

Ramy (who wonders why we had to wait for the NTSB report to learn
this)

Ramy's link didn't work for me, but this link did:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...02X00759&key=1

I've always believed that a disconnected aileron would not lead to loss
of control at speeds close to and above takeoff speed, and that the
danger was flutter at higher speeds. The glider would not respond as
quickly at low speeds, of course, but I thought it could still be held
level, turns could be made, and even spoilers used. Perhaps that is not
true, at least for the Nimbus, or perhaps the control was operating and
then fully disconnected, allowing the left wing to drop.

Can someone familiar with the Nimbus 4 M control hookups explain what
happens to the aileron if it is not hooked up at the fuselage? Does it
droop, does it move with the controls at all? Can it be partially
connected so it would appear to operate? Does it move with the flaps;
e.g., it the flaps were in negative during the takeoff roll, then moved
to positive to lift off, would this induce a roll to the left because
the left aileron did not follow the flaps into a positive setting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Jun 3, 4:40 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Ramy wrote:
I hope we don't need to wait for the NTSB report, we all know what
they worth. Or Thelen's accident reports in Soaring Magazine, which
from some reason he can never get the details from those involved, and
have to speculate.
I wish Nelson speedy recovery.

Ramy

No need to speculate anymore. According to the NTSB report it was
disconnected aileron
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...9&ntsbno=SEA08...
I hope Nelson is recovering fine.

Ramy (who wonders why we had to wait for the NTSB report to learn
this)

Ramy's link didn't work for me, but this link did:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...02X00759&key=1

I've always believed that a disconnected aileron would not lead to loss
of control at speeds close to and above takeoff speed, and that the
danger was flutter at higher speeds. The glider would not respond as
quickly at low speeds, of course, but I thought it could still be held
level, turns could be made, and even spoilers used. Perhaps that is not
true, at least for the Nimbus, or perhaps the control was operating and
then fully disconnected, allowing the left wing to drop.

Can someone familiar with the Nimbus 4 M control hookups explain what
happens to the aileron if it is not hooked up at the fuselage? Does it
droop, does it move with the controls at all? Can it be partially
connected so it would appear to operate? Does it move with the flaps;
e.g., it the flaps were in negative during the takeoff roll, then moved
to positive to lift off, would this induce a roll to the left because
the left aileron did not follow the flaps into a positive setting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Yikes, and thank heavens Nelson is recovering OK.

The LS-6 is controllable with one disconnected flaperon
only if the flaps are moved negative. Pulling the spoiler
handle more than half (?) will pull back the flap handle,
inducing roll, as demonstrated by groundloops (yes
plural) after pilots aborted a takeoff and pulled spoiler.

Do you know the drill for your glider to:
- recognize a disconnected control, and
- recover as best possible
or do you fly with automatic hookups ?

Hope you find this helpful,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

PS: I've automatic hookups on the Antares and Duo,
but not the whale...

PPS: Nope, I haven't tried disconnected flight...

Here is the (rather short) NTSB report;

"This was the first flight after removal of the glider from storage
and its reassembly. The pilot reported that during takeoff initial
climb, the glider started to roll to the left despite his control
inputs. He decided to abort the takeoff and land straight ahead while
attempting to maintain control of the powered glider. Subsequently,
the left wing struck the ground and the glider began to cart wheel.
Examination of the airframe revealed that the left and right wings
were structurally damaged and the empennage was partially separated.
Examination of the flight control system revealed that the left
aileron connecting rod was disconnected at the fuselage/wing quick
connection point and was undamaged. The pilot stated that during
assembly of the glider prior to the flight, the left aileron control
tube was inadvertently not attached and that he did not verify that
all flight controls moved free and correct prior to takeoff."

What is confusing to me is the statement "...pilot stated that during
assembly...the left aileron...was inadvertently not attached...".
This is an absolute statement that the pilot definately knew that the
left aileron was not attached. How would the pilot know this? If he
knew for a fact that the aileron was unattached, he would not have
left it unattached, would he? Was it partially attached and appeared
attached, only to detach during roll and liftoff? This would lead to
a different statement. I hope that the NTSB misquoted the pilot by
missing an important "Pilot: I wonder if..." (which is speculation on
the pilot's part and shouldn't be in the statement at all). If this
is a misquote, I would work to get the NTSB statement changed ASAP.

I, like others, would like to understand how one disconnected aileron
would cause loss of control. I always thought of that as a somewhat
benign mishap. It's the thought of a disconnected elevator that keeps
*ME* up at night.

- John DeRosa

I do have a bit of first hand experience with a not connected aileron on a
flapped ship. Notice I am clearly stating that I didn't hook it up, and
not that it came loose. My bad. My very, very bad. I was lucky.

From what I have seen on my flight, and heard of others who have had the
same thing happen, a loose flap or aileron will tend to float up on a
sailplane. So, if you have positive flap selected, you may well get an
uncorrectable roll in the direction of the loose surface. If you ever
find yourself in a flapped ship with full stick one way, and still rolling
the other, get the flaps negative quickly! And if you are near the ground,
be prepared to have to pull the nose up to keep from smiting it!

Knowing what I know now, I would have been able to do better than
releasing at 600 feet and flying a very awkward pattern. My sailplane of
choice for this near incident was a Zuni 2. 90 degree flaps for glide
path control, but a flap drive system that should have given me the best
possible control when I needed it. If I had thought about this sort of
thing before.

Where I could have had the best possible control would have been to
operate the two flap levers together. There is a cruise flap handle, much
like a 301 Libelle handle, and a crank, much like the one in a PIK-20B .The
top handle moves the flaps and ailerons together, and the crank moves just
the flaps. Had I thought about this before, I would have pushed the
cruise flap lever fully forward (getting the ailerons as close to matched
as possible), then pulled on half or a full turn of drag flap, to get the
lift shifted inboard and the nose back down low to have a good view of the
towplane and good stall margin.

A similar scenario could play out with a Schleicher ASW-20, ASW-22,
ASH-25, ASW-27, or ASG-29. On these gliders, larger flap deflections have
the ailerons go back up into the negative settings range. I remember Dick
Butler had a flap or aileron panel come disconnected on his 22 one day at
Hobbs in 1983. He said that with the flaps full negative, the stick was
near the center. At -7 degrees, it took half travel on the stick to keep
it level. Rather than experimenting with positive flaps before landing
(after flying the 330 mile task), he just flew a shallow bank pattern and
landed fast, with the flaps full negative.

To be the safest we can be, we must all know everything we can about the
systems we have at our disposal. How manyof you flapped ship drivers have
tried flying part of a traffic pattern using just the flaps, and not the
elevator? I have tried it at altitude to see the ship's response, but
have not been so bold as to try it down between 600 and 1000 feet where
there can be much more turbulence and much less time to recover. I just
hope I never have to.

Steve Leonard
Wichita, KS

I do have a bit of first hand experience with a not connected aileron on a
flapped ship. Notice I am clearly stating that I didn't hook it up, and
not that it came loose. My bad. My very, very bad. I was lucky.

From what I have seen on my flight, and heard of others who have had the
same thing happen, a loose flap or aileron will tend to float up on a
sailplane. So, if you have positive flap selected, you may well get an
uncorrectable roll in the direction of the loose surface. If you ever
find yourself in a flapped ship with full stick one way, and still rolling
the other, get the flaps negative quickly! And if you are near the ground,
be prepared to have to pull the nose up to keep from smiting it!

Knowing what I know now, I would have been able to do better than
releasing at 600 feet and flying a very awkward pattern. My sailplane of
choice for this near incident was a Zuni 2. 90 degree flaps for glide
path control, but a flap drive system that should have given me the best
possible control when I needed it. If I had thought about this sort of
thing before.

Where I could have had the best possible control would have been to
operate the two flap levers together. There is a cruise flap handle, much
like a 301 Libelle handle, and a crank, much like the one in a PIK-20B .The
top handle moves the flaps and ailerons together, and the crank moves just
the flaps. Had I thought about this before, I would have pushed the
cruise flap lever fully forward (getting the ailerons as close to matched
as possible), then pulled on half or a full turn of drag flap, to get the
lift shifted inboard and the nose back down low to have a good view of the
towplane and good stall margin.

A similar scenario could play out with a Schleicher ASW-20, ASW-22,
ASH-25, ASW-27, or ASG-29. On these gliders, larger flap deflections have
the ailerons go back up into the negative settings range. I remember Dick
Butler had a flap or aileron panel come disconnected on his 22 one day at
Hobbs in 1983. He said that with the flaps full negative, the stick was
near the center. At -7 degrees, it took half travel on the stick to keep
it level. Rather than experimenting with positive flaps before landing
(after flying the 330 mile task), he just flew a shallow bank pattern and
landed fast, with the flaps full negative.

To be the safest we can be, we must all know everything we can about the
systems we have at our disposal. How manyof you flapped ship drivers have
tried flying part of a traffic pattern using just the flaps, and not the
elevator? I have tried it at altitude to see the ship's response, but
have not been so bold as to try it down between 600 and 1000 feet where
there can be much more turbulence and much less time to recover. I just
hope I never have to.

Steve Leonard
Wichita, KS

I do have a bit of first hand experience with a not connected aileron on a
flapped ship. Notice I am clearly stating that I didn't hook it up, and
not that it came loose. My bad. My very, very bad. I was lucky.

From what I have seen on my flight, and heard of others who have had the
same thing happen, a loose flap or aileron will tend to float up on a
sailplane. So, if you have positive flap selected, you may well get an
uncorrectable roll in the direction of the loose surface. If you ever
find yourself in a flapped ship with full stick one way, and still rolling
the other, get the flaps negative quickly! And if you are near the ground,
be prepared to have to pull the nose up to keep from smiting it!

Knowing what I know now, I would have been able to do better than
releasing at 600 feet and flying a very awkward pattern. My sailplane of
choice for this near incident was a Zuni 2. 90 degree flaps for glide
path control, but a flap drive system that should have given me the best
possible control when I needed it. If I had thought about this sort of
thing before.

Where I could have had the best possible control would have been to
operate the two flap levers together. There is a cruise flap handle, much
like a 301 Libelle handle, and a crank, much like the one in a PIK-20B .The
top handle moves the flaps and ailerons together, and the crank moves just
the flaps. Had I thought about this before, I would have pushed the
cruise flap lever fully forward (getting the ailerons as close to matched
as possible), then pulled on half or a full turn of drag flap, to get the
lift shifted inboard and the nose back down low to have a good view of the
towplane and good stall margin.

A similar scenario could play out with a Schleicher ASW-20, ASW-22,
ASH-25, ASW-27, or ASG-29. On these gliders, larger flap deflections have
the ailerons go back up into the negative settings range. I remember Dick
Butler had a flap or aileron panel come disconnected on his 22 one day at
Hobbs in 1983. He said that with the flaps full negative, the stick was
near the center. At -7 degrees, it took half travel on the stick to keep
it level. Rather than experimenting with positive flaps before landing
(after flying the 330 mile task), he just flew a shallow bank pattern and
landed fast, with the flaps full negative.

To be the safest we can be, we must all know everything we can about the
systems we have at our disposal. How manyof you flapped ship drivers have
tried flying part of a traffic pattern using just the flaps, and not the
elevator? I have tried it at altitude to see the ship's response, but
have not been so bold as to try it down between 600 and 1000 feet where
there can be much more turbulence and much less time to recover. I just
hope I never have to.

Steve Leonard
Wichita, KS

I've never had it happen and I never totally thought about it, but I
believe I can explain why the aileron or flap would float up:

1) low pressure on the upper surface of the wing.

2) Mass-balancing on some controls at the leading edge (likely to be
AHEAD of the hinge/pivot point, right?).

3) If you start considering the control-surface as a free-floating
airfoil (on its own and not part of a wing), it will likely have a
coefficient of moment. And just like a winged airplane without a
downward force on the tail, that coefficient of moment will tend to
rotate the trailing edge of the "wing" (i.e. the control surface)
upwards and forwards.

Of course that's not to say any of this is applicable in all
situations, or that it will result in a predictable outcome... The
bottom line is that the best solution is prevention - do a CAC
(Critical Assembly Check) _and_ a PCC (Positive Control Check) before
the first flight, every day.

I tell you what scares me: We get in a rush on our launch-line, and
our students defer to the CFIGs for the takeoff checks when things get
hurried. We do have a preflight signoff for each glider (which
includes a PCC), that gets done every morning.... But I worry that
some of the students - especially ones that show up later in the day -
never get the "drill" down, and the launch-line rush is going to catch
up with us (i.e. THEM) someday...

--Noel

wrote:

The LS-6 is controllable with one disconnected flaperon
only if the flaps are moved negative. Pulling the spoiler
handle more than half (?) will pull back the flap handle,
inducing roll, as demonstrated by groundloops (yes
plural) after pilots aborted a takeoff and pulled spoiler.

Do you know the drill for your glider to:
- recognize a disconnected control, and
- recover as best possible
or do you fly with automatic hookups ?

My ASH 26 E has automatic hookups on all the controls.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org