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#21
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Leading Turns With Rudder
"sisu1a" wrote in message ... I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the article wrong or remembered it incorrectly). I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a 'situation' arises and stress levels are very high. I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means, I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly* instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses. -Paul I'm uncomfortable with teaching "lead with rudder" to primary students. In fact, aerodynamically, there is no need for rudder until adverse yaw manifests itself so both rudder and aileron should be applied simultaneously. Where this idea comes from, I think, is that it often FEELS like rudder input needs to come first. This is because most people move their feet slower than their hands. If your brain tells your hands and feet to move at the same time, the hands will move first. If you consiously try to move your feet a fraction of a second before your hands, it's likely they will move at nearly the same time. The problem with "institutionalizing" the rudder-first idea is that as pilots gain experience, their hands and feet will start moving in synchronization leading to real rudder first action and inadvertant skidding turn entries. I tell students to move the rudder and ailerons at the same time but to expect that, at first, their sluggish feet reactions will make it feel as if they need to use the rudder first. Later, when they have more experience, it will feel like they are moving them at the same time. So much for inadvertant skiding turn entries. It is actually an advantage to deliberately skid turn entries with some gliders. If the glider has a lot of dihedral, there will be a strong yaw-to-roll coupling effect which adds to the roll effect from the ailerons. Slightly skidding the turn entries with my Nimbus 2C will cut a second off the 45 degree right bank to 45 degree left bank turn reversal which is significant in a 20m glider. BTW, the effect of the Holinghaus/Johnson slipping turn is not to achieve "fuselage lift" but to use the dihedral yaw to roll coupling to hold off overbanking while keeping the ailerons centered. Centered ailerons keeps the wing profile intact tip to tip resulting in a greater rate of climb. It also has the added safety benefit that if the glider stalls it is likely to drop the high wing giving the pilot an additional second or so to recover wings level. Bill D |
#22
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Leading Turns With Rudder
At 02:56 22 July 2008, Bill Daniels wrote: (Snip)
I'm uncomfortable with teaching "lead with rudder" to primary students. In fact, aerodynamically, there is no need for rudder until adverse yaw manifests itself so both rudder and aileron should be applied simultaneously. Bill D So am I and I personally have never done that. I have pointed out to post solo pilots that the technique of leading with the rudder on some gliders (Grob103 in particular) will clean up the entry to a turn where it is intended to use large aileron input, it seems prevent the adverse yaw starting. It is not necessary for "normal" turn entry. I have never found it necessary on a ASW glider of any type. |
#23
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:53:24 -0700, sisu1a wrote:
I'm not an instructor, but here's my take. For my taste the earlier G103s, the Acro II and Twin Astir flavours are rather under ruddered. I find that, when flying these, my turn entries and exits are cleaner if I very slightly lead with the rudder. This is a matter of just a few milliseconds: a tenth of a second at most. Those are the only gliders where I think its needed. The G103C Acro III, the version with Schuemann wing planform, handles a lot better than the earlier ones and doesn't need this treatment. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | org | Zappa fan & glider pilot |
#24
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote:
I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the article wrong or remembered it incorrectly). I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a 'situation' arises and stress levels are very high. I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means, I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly* instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses. -Paul Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered? |
#25
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Leading Turns With Rudder
PMSC Member wrote:
We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude. Not trainers. Not students. Not if the spoilers are open. Not in the pattern. Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance. Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents, AGAIN? I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you suggest. This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG. The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely. Add me to the list of people who have been instructed by their first instructor to turn mostly with rudder. This guy was routinely flying at small distance from ridges using this method (it was at Pic Saint Loup, France http://cvvm.free.fr/index/index.php), and he was the chief instructor. One of his other sayings was "there are no good pilots, there are old ones". I don't know how he lived to this principle, because, indeed i fully agree with "PMSC Member". Especially when all this was on an ASK 13, which does very nice spins. Of course this junk was rationalized with a large infusion of crappy theories about adverse yaw or whatever, when it is very clear that flying perfectly symmetrical is always the optimum aerodynamically, and, more important, the safest. -- Michel TALON |
#26
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Leading Turns With Rudder
Those are the only gliders where I think its needed. Never flown a Jantar-1? Horribly under-ruddered, as I recall, needing lots of boot to coordinate a turn and preferring it applied a tad before aileron. Mike |
#27
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 22, 5:44*am, (Michel Talon) wrote:
PMSC Member wrote: We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. *Typically, we're talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude. Not trainers. Not students. Not if the spoilers are open. Not in the pattern. Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance. Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents, AGAIN? I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you suggest. This doesn't worry you? *You don't understand the problem. *And you aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). *See a good CFIG. The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. *I regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles me. *To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely. Add me to the list of people who have been instructed by their first instructor to turn mostly with rudder. This guy was routinely flying at small distance from ridges using this method (it was at Pic Saint Loup, Francehttp://cvvm.free.fr/index/index.php), and he was the chief instructor. One of his other sayings was "there are no good pilots, there are old ones". I don't know how he lived to this principle, because, indeed i fully agree with "PMSC Member". Especially when all this was on an ASK 13, which does very nice spins. Of course this junk was rationalized with a large infusion of crappy theories about adverse yaw or whatever, when it is very clear that flying perfectly symmetrical is always the optimum aerodynamically, and, more important, the safest. -- Michel TALON It is not clear the original post was "turn mostly wth rudder" - if so that would be strange advice. I read this as "number 1 thing" is the instructor is suggesting doing this first. Other instructors would commonly state this as "lead with rudder" (which I think will be fairly common advice or at least discussed by many instructors). Here is a case where use of language could be confusing to students if not properly explained, but again I hope there was a lot more explanation, demonstration, practice etc. involved. Darryl |
#28
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 22, 6:55*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
Those are the only gliders where I think its needed. Never flown a Jantar-1? Horribly under-ruddered, as I recall, needing lots of boot to coordinate a turn and preferring it applied a tad before aileron. Mike ASH-25, and I'd assume a Nimbus, etc. (yes not much training done in those). Darryl |
#29
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 22, 4:44 am, wrote:
On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote: I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the article wrong or remembered it incorrectly). I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a 'situation' arises and stress levels are very high. I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means, I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly* instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses. -Paul Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered? Well, it makes instruction with him about as much fun as it sounds (assuming your not a hapless student that doesn't know better and would never stand up to his authority which BTW is very authoritative, complete w/yelling tendencies but I digress...). It should be noted that he is using a 2-33 (our other trainer is an L-13 Blanik, which he is convinced it is awful for instruction compared to the wonderful 2-33...) to push this technique, which is not exactly snappy in ANY responses so I doubt the string is getting too far in most of the time. 95% of the instruction he does is with newbies who won't talk back, so your point is probably never brought up (the rest of the folks just grit their teeth, bite their tongue and finish their BFR ASAP). Recapping, my real concern of this does not come from how the 2-33 specifically likes/dislikes it. My concern comes from building this technique by rote as a reflex in students because it translates poorly to most other gliders, and seems like it could potentially lead to disaster down the road, from my limited perspective. Honest, this stuff actually gets written on a board and drilled into students heads, I'm not making this up. -Paul (trying to keep descriptions as generic as possible because I DON'T want to call him out) |
#30
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:52:43 -0700, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 22, 6:55*am, Mike the Strike wrote: Those are the only gliders where I think its needed. Never flown a Jantar-1? Horribly under-ruddered, as I recall, needing lots of boot to coordinate a turn and preferring it applied a tad before aileron. Mike ASH-25, and I'd assume a Nimbus, etc. (yes not much training done in those). The only one of those I've handled was a Nimbus 3, which seemed to handle OK apart from the rudder forces and the (to me anyway) large amounts of inertia about all three axes. Mind you, that was on a really difficult day - little drift but solid overcast at 3000 ft and only wide diameter, weak lift under it, so anything other than gentle turns would have lost more than they gained. We stayed up 3 hours to get some value from the tow and never got higher than 2800 ft or more than 10 miles from home. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | org | Zappa fan & glider pilot |
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