Club Class vs. Sports Class

That says it all. Thanks Ray. Sam




At 00:29 24 September 2008, wrote:

On Sep 23, 4:11 pm, wrote:

Help me out here. As a pr[a]ctical matter what are the alternatives?
Sure, any handicapping system is imperfect, but for example, if you
look at the last four Sports Class competitions at Parowan the top of
the podium has been claimed by a Duo twice, an LS-3 and a Twin Astir.
If I understand correctly only the LS-3 would have been allowed under
Club Class rules. So what class would those other pilots fly?

Non qualified Club Class gliders would still compete in Sports Class--
nothing changes.
Remember, this doesn't have to be an "either/or" scenario.

The Duos would have to fly Open if there was one and the Twin would be
SO=
L.

"Open" Class =3D open to *any* glider.
Non-Club gliders are always "qualified" for Sports Class.

There were also a number of ASW-27, D2, V2 class ships in sports,
usually flown by new (or "low key") competition pilots. Presumably
they would have to fly an FAI class or drop out if that was too
intimidating.

No, they could still participate in Sports Class.

Under the scenario where you offer both Sports and Club classes,
pilots would divide up, some who are eligible for Club might fly
Sports, bit the mix of ships in Sports would most likely be a few low-
performance gliders and a bunch of current generation ships - which
only accentuates the issues associated with handicaps, but more
importantly splits the field, making it less fun IMHO.

Having to task a Sports Class event is a function of the performance
capability of the lowest performing glider, no matter what the highest
performing glider is and regardless of how many gliders are in
between.

Splits the field/less fun: Having to fly to the back of the TP area
on short tasks every day, no matter what, because the limitations of a
1-26/L-13/Twin Astir entrant must be considered in tasking all but
erases all else's enroute strategy options--now that's no fun.

The thought of scoring Club Class within Sports Class seems appealing,
but I'm not sure I see much benefit. If a guy flying a Twin Astir
wins, why would you exclude him (or her) from Club Class seeding?

Because a Twin Astir is not a WGC Club Class designated glider. If
the U.S. intends to send a Club Class team over to compete on the
world stage, why should not we chose that team from a process using
Club Class gliders under Club Class rules? Does it make any sense to
pick a dirt track champion to race F-1 in the Monaco Grand Prix?

And if a guy flying the latest generation ship wins, it seems a
stretch
t=
o
me to award a trophy to someone who may have finished well down the
scoresheet just because his ship is on a list of Club Class gliders.

Not "either/or"...Not "either/or""...Not "either/or""...Not
"either/
or""...Not "either/or"=85

A Sports winner and a Club winner. Different tasking, competing
simultaneously.
-The new guys can do Sports.
-The older guys wanting shorter tasks can do Sports.
-The guy who wants to give rides can do Sports.
-The guy in the hot ship can do Sports (though I really don=92t think
that was the intent).
-The guy flying a kite can do Sports.
However,
-Those flying Club Class designated gliders who want to compete flying
more challenging courses against like aircraft (thus inducing a small
spread in handicap range) thereby making it a function of less the
plane and more the pilot, can--*and want*--to do Club Class.

Holding a Club Class race within a Sports Class event takes nothing
away from the Sports Class participants. On the other hand, forcing
Club Class gliders to the U.S. Sports Class intentions does, under
certain circumstances, take away from WGC Club Class intentions.

The great thing about Sports Class is its inclusiveness. While it has
its warts, I think it works pretty well overall in allowing pilots to
compete no matter[y] what ship they fly.

Granted. But I don't see how allowing those wishing to compete as a
Club Class takes anything away from Sports Class any more so than,
say. World Class or the 1-26 Ass'n takes away from Sports Class.

HIgh Thermals,

Ray Cornay
LS-4 RD

On Sep 23, 5:29*pm, wrote:
On Sep 23, 4:11 pm, wrote:


Non qualified Club Class gliders would still compete in Sports Class--
nothing changes.
Remember, this doesn't have to be an "either/or" scenario.

The Duos would have to fly Open if there was one and the Twin would be SOL.

"Open" Class = open to *any* glider.
Non-Club gliders are always "qualified" for Sports Class.

Only if you do both Club and Sports - which will be a numbers problem
in many regionals

Having to task a Sports Class event is a function of the performance
capability of the lowest performing glider, no matter what the highest
performing glider is and regardless of how many gliders are in
between.

That's why Sports Class is all TAT and MAT tasks so everyone can fly
the same task irrespective of performance. With 11 turnpoints and 30
mile radii this should never be a problem. Maybe we need to train CDs
better.

Splits the field/less fun: *Having to fly to the back of the TP area
on short tasks every day, no matter what, because the limitations of a
1-26/L-13/Twin Astir entrant must be considered in tasking all but
erases all else's enroute strategy options--now that's no fun.

I understand your point but disagree that this is an issue unless the
CD is indifferent to the issue. The 2005 Parowan Sports Nationals has
a Nimbus 4, a Nimbus 3, a PW-6 and a Russia. The Regionals in 2004,
2007 and 2008 had similar mixes. The guys flying the low performance
gliders got around pretty much every day but also knew they were going
to be both challenged and at a disadvantage. Again, under Sports
Class rules all the tasks are TAT/MAT so with the right tasking this
should never be a problem. If you can make it work in the west you can
make it work anywhere. Also, under your suggestion, the Nimbus 4 and
Russia are still in Sports class together, so it doesn't seem like
you've improved things for the guys who will feel it the most.


Because a Twin Astir is not a WGC Club Class designated glider. *If
the U.S. intends to send a Club Class team over to compete on the
world stage, why should not we chose that team from a process using
Club Class gliders under Club Class rules? *Does it make any sense to
pick a dirt track champion to race F-1 in the Monaco Grand Prix?

I think the facts belie this argument. Just look at the 2005 Sports
Nationals by way of example. It was not oversubscribed, yet less than
a dozen of the 48 competitors flew club class ships. You have to go
down to 15th place to fill out the podium for Club Class - I'm not
sure that's the best way to pick a world team member. Honestly I don't
think the piloting skills to make and ASW-20 go fast are closer to
those needed for a Libelle than for an ASW-27 - probably the opposite.
So, there's no point in excluding top pilots from consideration for
the team in club class just because they don't have access to an older
generation ship.

The issue is that outside the US clubs have lots of current-1 and -2
generation ships that are available to fly and race and so the class
is well filled out and competitive. That's not as true in the US, so
Club Class is more a function of private owners who race those ships
and the numbers are much smaller. I think splitting Club and Sports
and trying to run both will lead to a less competitive club class team
selection and a less robust sports class.


Not "either/or"...Not "either/or""...Not "either/or""...Not "either/
or""...Not "either/or"…

I understand - re-read my last post. I covered both the scenario where
you did Club instead of Sports as well as the scenario where you did
Club in addition to Sports.

A Sports winner and a Club winner. *Different tasking, *competing
simultaneously.
-The new guys can do Sports.
-The older guys wanting shorter tasks can do Sports.
-The guy who wants to give rides can do Sports.
-The guy in the hot ship can do Sports (though I really don’t think
that was the intent).
The guy flying a kite can do Sports.

You just argued for 75-85% of the guys currently flying Sports to keep
flying Sports. This means a small Club Class at most contests and
potentially more gaming by guys who want to fish for a trophy by
flying in the class with 4 gliders in it. You already see some of this
in 15M vs 18M class.

However,
-Those flying Club Class designated gliders who want to compete flying
more challenging courses against like aircraft (thus inducing a small
spread in handicap range) thereby making it a function of less the
plane and more the pilot, can--*and want*--to do Club Class.

I just don't agree. The guys with the extreme high and low handicaps
aren't typically high on the scoresheet, so what we're talking about
here is should an ASW-27 be permitted to fly against an ASW-20. Go
fly against Rick Culbertson in his -20 and you'll see that the pilot
matters a lot more than you might think - even without a handicap. One
thing I could see is encouraging pilots in current generation gliders
with seeding points above, say 80, to fly in an FAI class.


Holding a Club Class race within a Sports Class event takes nothing
away from the Sports Class participants. *On the other hand, forcing
Club Class gliders to the U.S. Sports Class intentions does, under
certain circumstances, take away from WGC Club Class intentions.

Again, I don't really agree. I think the main point is to try to get a
full field of competitors. Splitting up a field of 10 Sports class
competitors in a typical regionals into 4 Club Class and 6 Sports
Class just means than all but one Club Class pilots make the podium.
Good if your objective is to get a medal, but bad if you want to
determine who the best pilot is.


The great thing about Sports Class is its inclusiveness. While it has
its warts, I think it works pretty well overall in allowing pilots to
compete no matter[y] what ship they fly.

Granted. *But I don't see how allowing those wishing to compete as a
Club Class takes anything away from Sports Class any more so than,
say. World Class or the 1-26 Ass'n takes away from Sports Class.

It only takes away by driving the number of competitors in a class
down by 50% on average. I think a good exercise would be to go back
through all the sports class scoresheets for the last couple of years
and divide them into club class qualified and the remainder, just to
see what we get in terms of numbers and what it would have meant for
seeding points. My guess it that the guys flying club class gliders
will see their points go up on average, not because of handicaps, but
because of less competition.

My 2 cents.

9B

9B said:

The issue is that outside the US clubs have lots of current-1 and -2
generation ships that are available to fly and race and so the class
is well filled out and competitive. That's not as true in the US, so
Club Class is more a function of private owners who race those ships
and the numbers are much smaller. I think splitting Club and Sports
and trying to run both will lead to a less competitive club class team
selection and a less robust sports class.


I'm surprised it took so long for someone to make this excellent point
- thanks Andy!

Gliding is much more a club-based activity in Europe and the rest of
the world than it is in the USA, where it tends to be more of an
individual sport. Here, a pilot is more likely to fly his own ship at
a commercial FBO than fly a club ship at a private gliderport. With a
much smaller number of truly club-class ships, I doubt that club class
will ever be really viable in the USA.

As weatherman, I also helped the Task Committee at this year's Region
9 in Parowan. Sports Class was extremely diverse, with everything
from an ultralight Sparrowhawk to a Duo Discus. Nevertheless, the
Committee managed to set tasks that challenged every one of the
competitors. I heard no complaints about tasks being either too easy
or too difficult.

I have personally learned a lot by flying tasks with pilots who are
far better than I am. I'll never catch them, of course, - I'm just
not good enough - but I have improved my cross-country techniques and
speeds by watching them and analyzing their flight logs. Anyone can
do this, whatever they fly.

Finally, give the scorer a break! It's a hard and thankless task
without introducing yet another variable.

Mike