OT - What espioange/war novels do you read? [SURVEY]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:09:10 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

I just prefer Coyle's much more nuanced approach to Clancy's cartoons -
comparing say "Code of Honor" or "God's Children" to "Clear and Present
Danger", the difference between the two authors' approach is stark. I'll
be curious to see if Coyle writes one about Iraq; Clancy's approach would
be to write about the period of "major combat" and end it there when the
good guys 'won', in a victory for truth, justice and the american way.
Coyle would be writing about the whole last year, having to choose from a
bunch of bad options and co-opt people who often aren't very nice and/or
have their own agendas, collateral damage (there isn't any in a Clancy
book, at least none caused by the US -our weapons either score bullseyes or
miss/malfunction in open ground), the war would be fought by hot, dirty,
tired and scared 19 year-old PFCs led by 25 year old Sgts. instead of stock
Hollywood 'characters' led by John Wayne or Harrison Ford, etc.

I can't sit back and let you pigeon-hole Clancy that way. I'll agree
that the stretch from Jack Ryan naval officer in "Hunt for Red
October" to President Ryan has been a bit cartoonish. But the grunt
level warfare of Dingo Chavez in the Columbian jungle is pretty
compelling. The convoluted turns of Sum of All Fears and other Clancy
works make a great read, even when belief must be suspended.

The point of good fiction is that it suspends disbelief and does so in
a manner which is sufficiently compelling to keep the reader returning
for more. To fault Clancy for look of real-world realism (his
fictional realism, AKA "techno-babble", is sufficiently detailed to be
believable), is to place the novelist in a creative strait-jacket.

Norman Mailer gives you scared 19-year olds, if that's what you must
have.

Is Steven King's stuff compelling? Absolutely! Is it realistic? Of
course not. But, sit in a dimly lit room past mid-night on a stormy
night with Salem's Lot on your lap and I'll guarantee you believe in
vampires.

((All of the above being said, I'll agree that Clancy's sub-contracted
work--what is it? Ops Center?--is crap!))


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:09:10 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

I just prefer Coyle's much more nuanced approach to Clancy's cartoons -
comparing say "Code of Honor" or "God's Children" to "Clear and Present
Danger", the difference between the two authors' approach is stark. I'll
be curious to see if Coyle writes one about Iraq; Clancy's approach would
be to write about the period of "major combat" and end it there when the
good guys 'won', in a victory for truth, justice and the american way.
Coyle would be writing about the whole last year, having to choose from a
bunch of bad options and co-opt people who often aren't very nice and/or
have their own agendas, collateral damage (there isn't any in a Clancy
book, at least none caused by the US -our weapons either score bullseyes or
miss/malfunction in open ground), the war would be fought by hot, dirty,
tired and scared 19 year-old PFCs led by 25 year old Sgts. instead of stock
Hollywood 'characters' led by John Wayne or Harrison Ford, etc.

I can't sit back and let you pigeon-hole Clancy that way. I'll agree
that the stretch from Jack Ryan naval officer in "Hunt for Red
October" to President Ryan has been a bit cartoonish.

Oddly enough, I thought "Executive Orders" was one of his best. Between that
and the tail end of "Debt of Honor"(and "Black Sunday" years ago), that's
undoubtedly why I reacted to 9/11 and the anthrax scare not with "Oh my god!"
but rather "I'm surprised it took so long". Paying attention to what was
happening in the Middle East over the last decade or two helped.

But the grunt
level warfare of Dingo Chavez in the Columbian jungle is pretty
compelling.

Ed, read "Code of Honor" and "Clear and Present Danger" back to back (both are
about Colombia), and then tell me which you think is a more accurate portrayal.
And then read "God's Children" (about trying to be 'peacekeepers' in the
Balkans, when the locals main interest is getting in a little ethnic cleansing
of their own), and tell me that you think that Clancy could even attempt the
subject. I did think the movie version of CaPD was well done, especially the
arrival at the airport in Bogota and the subsequent ambush. Gave you a real
feeling for a state and government under siege, near to anarchy.

The convoluted turns of Sum of All Fears and other Clancy
works make a great read, even when belief must be suspended.

Sure, I usually enjoy them, but I also know how they'll end. More irritating to
me, Clancy's characters are all one-dimensional cliches, and their behavior and
dialog is entirely predictable. And let's face it, much of the time they're
only there to provide a plausible reason to introduce or use some gee-whiz
weaponry, although since the end of the Cold War he's had to move away from that
a bit. But shades of gray are still beyond him.

The point of good fiction is that it suspends disbelief and does so in
a manner which is sufficiently compelling to keep the reader returning
for more. To fault Clancy for look of real-world realism (his
fictional realism, AKA "techno-babble", is sufficiently detailed to be
believable), is to place the novelist in a creative strait-jacket.

Even his techno-babble used to be a lot better. As I said, he's been coasting
recently. I thought "Bear and the Dragon" was just awful, and "Red Rabbit" was
so-so. I couldn't tell you the story line of either now, which shows how
forgettable they were.

Norman Mailer gives you scared 19-year olds, if that's what you must
have.

I never thought "The Naked and the Dead" was all that good. "The Thin Red Line"
was better, but who needs fiction about the ground war in the Pacific when E.B.
Sledge's "With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa" is available?

Is Steven King's stuff compelling? Absolutely! Is it realistic? Of
course not. But, sit in a dimly lit room past mid-night on a stormy
night with Salem's Lot on your lap and I'll guarantee you believe in
vampires.

Haven't read King in years. I think I bailed somewhere around "Christine" or
"Cujo". Besides, I did my "terrified to go to sleep" bit around the age of 13,
when I saw the original "Night of the Living Dead" late at night on TV while I
was alone in the house for the weekend. After that experience, vampires are
nothing;-)

((All of the above being said, I'll agree that Clancy's sub-contracted
work--what is it? Ops Center?--is crap!))

Never gone near the stuff. If I want to read total mindless escapist formulaic
trash, there's always Clive Cussler (Jack Higgins has become almost as bad,
which is a shame. Cussler was always trash, but Higgins used to be a lot
better). It's interesting to see how Robert Ludlum has continued to publish new
books, despite the considerable handicap of being dead;-) Just shows that once
you've reduced your output to repeating the same tired formula, almost anyone
can write the stuff. Oddly, this (continuing to write after death, not
repeating the same formula) never happened to Alistair MacLean. Perhaps this is
due to there being more of a reading audience when he died, or maybe publishers
were just more willing to take a chance on new authors, figuring that not every
work had to be an instant blockbuster at Barnes and Noble.

Guy

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:53:08 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
Derek Robinson, Mark Berent, John Del Vecchio, Steven Coontz, Barrett
Tillman all wrote one or more good books that I've kept.

I'll probably see Mark this week in Nashville at the annual River Rats
Reunion. He's the real deal, a true fighter pilot and a good guy (a
lot like Tom "Bear" Wilson whose fiction has eroded a bit since the
original F-105 Weasel trilogy that drew so heavily on his war
experiences.) I'll mention to Mark that he's got a nascent fan-club in
the UK.

Read and thoroughly enjoyed two of his books, but they're not easily
found in the UK. Give him my regards and congratulations.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote

Sven Hassel (too much "How the Wehrmacht overwhelmingly
won every single battle in the course of losing the war".


You must have read a different translation- all my copies keep having the
characters get the **** kicked out of them, and few barely manage to crawl
back to a German position.

Characters who do claim the Wermacht wins battles tend to either a) be
saying so with extreme sarcasm, or b) immediately get the **** ripped out of
them and/or killed by everybody else...


--
--
"I pity the fool who goes out tryin' a' take over the world, then runs home
cryin' to his momma!" [BA Baracus]

Redemption 05 - Hanover International Hotel, Hinckley, February 25-27 2005
http://www.smof.com/redemption

http://www.btinternet.com/~david.mcintee

Currently reading: []

Guy Alcala wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote:

[snip]
Is Steven King's stuff compelling? Absolutely! Is it realistic? Of
course not. But, sit in a dimly lit room past mid-night on a stormy
night with Salem's Lot on your lap and I'll guarantee you believe in
vampires.

Haven't read King in years. I think I bailed somewhere around "Christine"
or "Cujo". Besides, I did my "terrified to go to sleep" bit around the
age of 13, when I saw the original "Night of the Living Dead" late at
night on TV while I was alone in the house for the weekend. After that
experience, vampires are nothing;-)

Most of Steven King's novels are basic filler crap for me. The one that
has consistently scared the bejesus out of me is "The Shining". Perhaps
I shouldn't have read it when I was 13, during a thunderstorm in
Tennessee (much more impressive than wimpy California thunderstorms).

Heck, I was scared by the movie trailer (elevator doors opening, oceans
of blood pouring out). Of course, that may have been because I was nince
or ten when that came out (and what they were doing showing a trailer
for "The Shining" in front of a Disney movie I'll never know...)

((All of the above being said, I'll agree that Clancy's sub-contracted
work--what is it? Ops Center?--is crap!))

Never gone near the stuff. If I want to read total mindless escapist
formulaic trash, there's always Clive Cussler (Jack Higgins has become
almost as bad, which is a shame. Cussler was always trash, but Higgins
used to be a lot better).

Higgins has been recycling old plots for at least a decade. In some
cases, recycling entire books (usually ones that were originally
published with "Harry Patterson" as the author [I can't remember which
is the pseudonym any more, Patterson or Higgins.].) by writing new
opening and closing chapters and then having the entire old book in the
middle.

Clive Cussler is apparently finally retiring. (Though there will be two
new series "From the NUMA Files" and one other, which will have
Cussler's name prominent on the cover but actually written by someone
else.

It's interesting to see how Robert Ludlum has
continued to publish new books, despite the considerable handicap of being
dead;-) Just shows that once you've reduced your output to repeating the
same tired formula, almost anyone can write the stuff. Oddly, this
(continuing to write after death, not repeating the same formula) never
happened to Alistair MacLean. Perhaps this is due to there being more of
a reading audience when he died, or maybe publishers were just more
willing to take a chance on new authors, figuring that not every work had
to be an instant blockbuster at Barnes and Noble.

Actually, there were several "Alistair Maclean's" [whatever] novels
published after his death. As I understand it, most of them were based
on plot outlines he had written for a film studio. At least one of them
("Hostage Tower") was filmed.

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

Marc Reeve wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote:

snip

((All of the above being said, I'll agree that Clancy's sub-contracted
work--what is it? Ops Center?--is crap!))

Never gone near the stuff. If I want to read total mindless escapist
formulaic trash, there's always Clive Cussler (Jack Higgins has become
almost as bad, which is a shame. Cussler was always trash, but Higgins
used to be a lot better).

Higgins has been recycling old plots for at least a decade. In some
cases, recycling entire books (usually ones that were originally
published with "Harry Patterson" as the author [I can't remember which
is the pseudonym any more, Patterson or Higgins.].) by writing new
opening and closing chapters and then having the entire old book in the
middle.

If I have to read the phrase "God Bless all Here" one more time, I'm likely to
do violence;-) The real one's Harry Patterson; Higgins (and back in the '60s
and '70s, sometimes Martin Fallon/James Graham/Hugh Marlowe) are the
pseudonyms. But I've got to admit I still to read Higgins; it's an evening's
mindless escapism. Checking out his bibliography here,

http://www.myunicorn.com/bibl3/bibl0383.html

you can sort of see that painstaking craftmanship wasn't an issue.

Clive Cussler is apparently finally retiring. (Though there will be two
new series "From the NUMA Files" and one other, which will have
Cussler's name prominent on the cover but actually written by someone
else.

Yeah, I've already seen one of those in the library. Somehow I had no urge to
read it ;-) Still, Cussler seems to have had fun with his life, and been able
to do what he wanted to. There are worse things to be than a purveyor of
mindless escapism, and I always enjoyed the picture of his latest car on the
back cover of the dust jacket.

It's interesting to see how Robert Ludlum has
continued to publish new books, despite the considerable handicap of being
dead;-) Just shows that once you've reduced your output to repeating the
same tired formula, almost anyone can write the stuff. Oddly, this
(continuing to write after death, not repeating the same formula) never
happened to Alistair MacLean. Perhaps this is due to there being more of
a reading audience when he died, or maybe publishers were just more
willing to take a chance on new authors, figuring that not every work had
to be an instant blockbuster at Barnes and Noble.

Actually, there were several "Alistair Maclean's" [whatever] novels
published after his death. As I understand it, most of them were based
on plot outlines he had written for a film studio. At least one of them
("Hostage Tower") was filmed.

Thank goodness I never saw them, but at least he had something to do with them.
Still, before formula took over completely he wrote some decent books, and at
least one terrific one ("HMS Ulysses" of course; "Guns of Navarone" was well
above average). Somewhere around "The Golden Gate" it was clear he was just
recycling the same old stuff, although I stuck with him for several more out of
loyalty and the hope that he'd get a second wind.

AFAICT, Ludlum's publishers only admitted in 'his' most recent book that he's
dead, and that someone else wrote the entire thing. Not bad for a guy who died
in March 2001, and whose output has continued without let-up ever since. Not
that it affected me much; I think the last one of his I read was "The Bourne
Identity", or maybe "The Parsifal Mosaic". He always wrote potboilers, but at
least the early ones were halfway _decent_ potboilers.

Guy

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:24:24 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:

WEB Griffin's latest in one of his series is in Korea.

Griffin's book on Korea that I started was TEDIOUS.

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Is Steven King's stuff compelling? Absolutely! Is it realistic? Of
course not. But, sit in a dimly lit room past mid-night on a stormy
night with Salem's Lot on your lap and I'll guarantee you believe in
vampires.

****in'-aye BTDT. "Salem's Lot" is the best vampire story I ever
even heard of. I was making sure the doors and windows were locked
halfway through it.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:53:23 -0400, Eric Pinnell see my web site
wrote:
I don't read much war fiction, but one book by Gaz Hunter "shooting
gallery" stuck in my mind, rather real in its descriptions, I liked
Steven King but have waned a bit due to his last two, One warning
though 'Ice Station' by Matthew Reilly...

Now thats a unintentionally funny _funny_ book... has anybody read it
without giggling??

Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

In article ,
John Cook wrote:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:53:23 -0400, Eric Pinnell see my web site
wrote:
I don't read much war fiction, but one book by Gaz Hunter "shooting
gallery" stuck in my mind, rather real in its descriptions, I liked
Steven King but have waned a bit due to his last two, One warning
though 'Ice Station' by Matthew Reilly...

Now thats a unintentionally funny _funny_ book... has anybody read it
without giggling??

No, but I read through Reilly's following book "Area 7," and all I could
think was that it was written by someone who was really, _really_ trying
to get something made into a movie with a lot of special effects, and
damn the reality.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.