North-Up versus Direction-Up?

ContestID67 wrote:

OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
(or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

John, it's not that hard! The goal line remains steady while the track
line rotates. When the track line approaches the goal line, you can roll
out and go! Easy. If you aren't using a goal, you can still easily tell
which direction the track line is pointing and roll out on a North heading.

In reality, most pilots, most of the time, already know which way to go
because they remember what they were heading towards before they began
to circle. So, they don't even need to spend any time looking at the
PDA. Most of the time I'm thermalling, the map is covered by Mobile's
"Thermalling Assistant", so it doesn't matter what the map is doing.

The problem with Track Up while circling is it's hard to see what my
drift is (wind confirmation), to study the map, or pick another goal,
or get the details on some airspace because the map is moving. All these
are so much easier when the map is steady - and THAT'S how I reduce my
cockpit workload.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

This discussion is always really fun to watch :-)

Maybe I spent too much time in my youth playing video game where you
drove some tank/helicopter/spaceship around a screen that was always
"north up".

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

I can't imagine using the PDA to try and roll out on a heading !
There has to be _something_ for a visual reference. Isn't there ?
Cloud, sun, ?

Todd Smith
3S

On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad wrote:

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.


Todd - The question still comes down to this: When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see themselves from above. So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

On Dec 17, 5:02*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad wrote:

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

Todd - The question still comes down to this: *When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

Sure, some mental gymnastics are required, but they don't take any
significant time, because I have done it that way for so long.

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. *I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. *When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. *Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

I agree about the "eyes outside", but track up mode is slower for me
than north up.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: *There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. *They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see *themselves from above. *So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. *I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
heading.

I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.


Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

Agreed.

I have the same conversation with sailors too. Some like one, some
the other.

Obviously from this discussion it is just a matter of preference or
what you used to. But one advantage to North Up which I didn't see
mentioned so far is that your moving map does not move around all the
time, especially when thermaling. Even with the north up thermaling
option Paul mentioned, it means the map will switch back and forth
between north up and track up when thermaling, which must be more
confusing then having a constant orientation.

Ramy (always North Up)

On Dec 17, 8:40*am, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi John,

I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
(including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
circling. * I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
cruising. *However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
than rotating. *I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
make the switch automatically.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"ContestID67" wrote in message

...



It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
than "North-Up".

WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.

Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
*ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
that is, when soaring. * I started using north-up at first, but soon
found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
the next turn point. *Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
and rubbing my stomach at the same time. *Maybe this is unique to a
thermal-only soaring climate. * *NOTE: I am not directionally
challanged.

Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
they do.

Thanks, John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy wrote:
Obviously from this discussion it is just a matter of preference or
what you used to. But one advantage to North Up which I didn't see
mentioned so far is that your moving map does not move around all the
time, especially when thermaling. Even with the north up thermaling
option Paul mentioned, it means the map will switch back and forth
between north up and track up when thermaling, which must be more
confusing then having a constant orientation.

Ramy (always North Up)

Odd thing is, in my glider when I look outside while thermalling the
world appears to be moving around.

Seriously, I totally agree it's all a matter of preference or more
precisely what you have trained your brain to do.

I remember when I first started flying R/C gliders. While standing on
the ground and looking up at the glider and trying to instantly
translate glider turn left/right into the correct actions with my
fingers/thumbs seemed impossible. Meanwhile here were all of these
guys, many 20-30 years older than me, that were having no trouble at
all. Talk about humbling experiences. But I kept practicing and that
is the key. It took a certain amount of time for my brain to "re-wire"
itself. Before long my fingers simply did the right thing instantly
without me having to "think" about it. The brain is an amazing organ.

I believe that with practice one could "re-wire" one's brain to use most
any combination of PDA settings and be able to quickly translate between
PDA screen and the wind screen.

Regards,

-Doug

Ramy wrote:
Obviously from this discussion it is just a matter of preference or
what you used to. But one advantage to North Up which I didn't see
mentioned so far is that your moving map does not move around all the
time, especially when thermaling. Even with the north up thermaling
option Paul mentioned, it means the map will switch back and forth
between north up and track up when thermaling, which must be more
confusing then having a constant orientation.

I and most pilots are very familiar with the North up map, because it's
the way we look at maps most of the time for most of our lives. The PDA
map also has a the goal line on it, so it's obvious which way the flight
is going, even in North up. So, North up isn't confusing.

Track Up when flying isn't confusing, because what I can see on the map
is what I see out the window. Easy.

If you haven't flown with a Track up map, it will likely be confusing
for a few flights. It will take a while for your brain to stop
translating what it sees as a North Up map, but it'll learn.

I didn't choose Track up because it was easier to identify what was
ahead (though it is). There wasn't much to identify with the early units
- just circles for the airports, no rivers, etc. I initially did it
because I wanted the maximum amount of real estate displayed ahead of
the glider on the small PDA screen.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Flying: Course Up

Driving: North Up



Jack

Procreation: face down
Flying: Course Up

Driving: North Up



Jack

On Dec 18, 11:30*am, Bill Bullimore
wrote:
Procreation: face down



Flying: Course Up

Driving: North Up

Jack- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or face wherever :}