General Zinni on Sixty Minutes

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
You can have whatever political opinions you want, but you have to
stop ignoring the facts and making these groundless assertions.

Ed, I'ld wager on this point you are wrong: Art doesn't "have to stop
ignoring the facts and making these groundless assertions." He has
a fully demonstrated capability of ignoring anything he wishes.

Art, you of all people should respect someone who earned a commission
in the USAF and completed AF pilot training, then went on to
operationally qualify in a single-seat/single-engine fighter and fly
it for four and a half years.

GWB did not "earn" a commission in the USAF. He didn't go to Officer Candidate
School, or whatever the AF has.

And his term was -six- years, not 4 1/2.

It's sad that such a person could be the CIC.

Walt

President Bush fulfilled his duty.

Bush clearly did not complete his military service. There is no dispute on
that.

Walt

Yeah you are right. I am ashamed of myself with my measly combat record of
50
missions over Germany being no match for the no-show Bush who hid in
Texas
while the Nam war war raged. Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Is your own record the benchmark? If so the vast majority, including Al
Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, etc. would not qualify.


Everyone hasn't done what Art did, but a large number (including Gore) did what
they were required to do. Bush did not.

Walt

Once more, mea culpa mea culpa. I guess I am just not as good an
American as a guy who fialed to show up when it was required of him.
I thought you got 20 years at hard labor forthat sort of stuff.


If he hadn't shown up for duty you can be sure he'd have paid the penalty.


Obviously not, because Bush wsa clearly in an unauthorized status, and he was
not held accountable. It was the '70's, the military was very unpopular, and
Bush's daddy was around to make sure no actions were taken. And Bush was in
the National Guard, which is -not- the same as the Air Force.



One more point. Kerry went to war.


Any idea why he declined to serve his full tour?


That's a false statement. Kerry did serve his full tour. Bush was just
allowed to walk on his obligations.




Bush hid in Texas.


Bush's location was known. He could have been sent to Vietnam at any time.

Not with his father covering his ass.


How do you feel about Bill Clinton?

Bill Clinton is not running for office.

This time around a decorated Viet Nam veteran is running against a putz who
didn't even go to OCS.

Walt

It's amazing how so many WWII vets risked life and limb to save the French
from Totalitarianism, then scurry back to the U.S. and try to ram it down
our throats . . .

Why don't you elaborate on that statement some. Who is doing that? How many
WWII veterans have done that?

When I vote for Kerry, is that a vote for totalitarianism?

Walt

Once more, mea culpa mea culpa. I guess I am just not as good an
American as a guy who fialed to show up when it was required of him.

Except, of course, he did, by the records, despite the frantic efforts
of some to pretend otherwise.

Can you show us anywhere to look for confirmation of that?

Meanwhile, he's been in a job for the last three years which has a
*very* high mortality rate, after serving in a plane in the National
Guard which had a mortality rate *in training* about equal to combat
flying.

He skipped a physical that took him off flying status. He did not
satisfactorily complete his term of service, and I don't think even the RNC is
saying he did. Can you confirm?


Walt

Since you're claiming that this guy isn't brave, and that he didn't do
his duty, you're nowhere near as good an American as you thought.

Sorry, but you brought it up.

--

Yeah. Thats what I said.

These guys know they have no leg to stand on, Art. So they attack you.

Bush did not satisfactorily complete his term of service.

You did, and thanks again.


Walt

Please cite a reputable source showing President Bush "hid" in Texas and
that he did not fulfil his service requirements. I can cite plenty that
detail his service and convincingly counter the lies of his politically
motivated oppoents (like yourself).

Jarg


Bush "hid" in Texas by seeking a National Guard assignment at all.

That Bush did not satisfactorily complete his required service is not in
dispute. He clearly did not.

"So, while the news networks have sat on this explosive story for months, it's
well documented that George W. Bush never showed up for National Guard duty for
a period of approximately one year, possibly more, in 1972-1973. Despite all
the talk about "honor and dignity," Bush seems to have a problem meeting his
commitments."

http://www.awolbush.com/



p.s I don't think anyone is questioning your service which makes me wonder
why you are compelled to repeatedly remind us of it. I hope you don't think
it will somehow counterbalance your sloppy thinking!

As when Art was a bombardier, he is right on target.

Walt

No, Art, you shouldn't be ashamed for your service. You are
justifiably proud. But, you should be at least a bit sheepish for
continually repeating an assertion that has no merit.

Bush clearly -did not- complete his service satisfactorily.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributor..._Deserter.html

A BUZZFLASH READER COMMENTARY

Dear Buzz,

Attached is the formal complaint that I made with the Department of
Defense concerning George W. Bush's desertion during the Vietnam war.

Maybe you could post the complaint and encourage others to submit formal
complaints as well. Tell people to call their congresspeople and request as a
constituent service that they write a cover letter and deliver it. It was
amazingly easy for me.

A BuzzFlash Reader

* * *

Desertion

Department of Defense
The Pentagon
Washington, D.C. 20301-1900


To whom it may concern:

Recently, I was made aware of allegations concerning several violations of the
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) by George W. Bush during the Vietnam
War. The alleged acts include being Absent Without Leave (UCMJ Article 86) for
a period of more than a year from his National Guard assignments in Texas and
Alabama. According to the UCMJ, a person who is AWOL for more than 30 days with
evidence of no intent to return to duty is guilty of Desertion. (UCMJ Article
85)

To understand the gravity of this offense, one need only read the section 4.9.5
e. of Article 85, which states that the maximum punishment for desertion in a
time of war (3), is, "Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may
direct". As far as I am aware, George W. Bush has never received any punishment
for these alleged crimes, nor has he ever been charged.

When I read about these allegations in national media outlets including, but
not limited to; The Boston Globe(1), The Washington Post(2), The Birmingham
News(3), and The Dallas Morning News(4), I decided to call the Department of
Defense to find out what the Statute of Limitations was for these crimes. I was
informed that because of the nature of the crimes; deserting one's country
during a time of war, that there is NO statute of limitations, and these
crimes, if proven, can still be prosecuted today.

The purpose of this correspondence is to make a formal written complaint with
circumstantial and documentary evidence of George W. Bush's violations of the
UCMJ. Since he is the Commander in Chief of our armed forces, the details of
his past service or lack thereof, are of particular interest to the American
people.

DETAILS:

From May to November 1972, George W. Bush was living in Alabama working on the
US senate campaign of Winton Blount and was required to attend drills with the
Air National Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. There is no record that he
attended any drills whatsoever. Additionally, General William Turnipseed (r)
who was commander of the unit at that time has stated in interviews that he
never saw Bush report for duty.

On September 5, 1972, Bush had requested permission to perform duty for
September, October, and November at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in
Montgomery. Permission was granted, and Bush was ordered to report to General
William Turnipseed. In interviews, Turnipseed, and his administrative officer
at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, have stated that they had no memory of Bush ever
reporting.

Seven months later, at Ellington Air Force Base in Texas, Bush's two superior
officers were unable to complete his annual evaluation covering the year from
May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973 because, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this
unit during the period of this report." Both superior officers, who are now
dead, and also Ellington's top personnel officer at the time, mistakenly
concluded that Bush served his final year of service in Alabama. Bush returned
to live in Texas after the senatorial election in November, 1972, so this is
obviously not true.

According to the records available from the National Guard, the period between
May 1972 and May 1973 remains unaccounted for. George W. Bush himself has
refused to answer questions about this period in his life, other than to state
that he fulfilled all of his National Guard commitments. If this were true, why
is there no record of him fulfilling these commitments at either of his posts
in Texas or Alabama? Why is there not one commanding officer that can come
forward and state unequivocally that Bush reported for duty?

If the allegations are true that Bush deserted his country during a time of
war, this is one of the gravest offenses one can commit against their country,
short of treason. This is why there is no Statute of Limitations concerning
these crimes. My father served proudly as a field surgeon in Vietnam, and it
distresses me greatly that a person could use his family's influence and power
to not only avoid the draft for service, but then to not fulfill the duties
that he was assigned in substitute for serving in Vietnam.

These crimes are not to be taken lightly, and I believe that all men and women
who serve America proudly would be shocked that a soldier was allowed to abuse
the system in the way that George W. Bush allegedly has. These charges warrant
investigation, and until a satisfactory record of Bush's service is produced, I
can only assume that Bush did indeed desert his country in a time of war.

I implore you to investigate these charges. In this time of war and talk of
preemptive strikes against other countries, it would serve the American people
greatly to know that our Commander in Chief did not run away from duty during
Vietnam. If this man is to send other's husbands, wives, and children to die in
a foreign land, we must make sure that he fulfilled his obligations and
commitments to America before he demands that others do the same.

Sincerely,

A BuzzFlash Reader