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#351
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Peter R. wrote: Jay Honeck wrote: Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans -- and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by Katrina. Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US. This argument is starting to wear a little thin as more information becomes available. New Orleans and the state of Louisiana had a plan for evacuating more than a million people from the city, including providing transportation for up to 300,000 people who had no means of getting out themselves. Neither the governor nor the mayor (who has been very quick to blame everyone but himself) chose to implement this plan, despite the fact they had plenty of warning and all of the needed resources. The argument that people are unable to leave also weakens as we get more and more incidents of people refusing to leave when they are offered transportation, despite the fact that they are being told that they will get no more food or water or medical services if they stay. They won't even leave with armed men telling them in no uncertain terms that they have to leave. We also see that a lot of the people who are refusing to leave are anything but destitute. They are just ignorant and stubborn. Now, really, it is easy for local officials to blame the federal government for a weak response, but what were these local officials doing? It appears that they were doing nothing. City and state governments are supposed to be the first resort in an emergency. Where were they? Police were standing by watching looters. Emergency call centers just let phones ring off the hook. People who are not Americans may not know this, but federal troops are actually prohibited from performing law enforcement duties. The federal government had to get pretty creative with the law in order to get anything moving in New Orleans and Louisiana. Yet we have a governor in Louisiana who took days to make up her mind whether she needed federal help or not. I don't think most people are fooled by the usual idiot media reporting of federal incompetence. The next local elections in Louisiana may show a real backlash, if a recall movement or even impeachment proceedings are not organized before then. |
#352
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Keep in mind Martin lives in a socialize European state. So his
experience with social programs is vastly different than those found in the United States. |
#353
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I don't think most people are fooled by the usual idiot media reporting
of federal incompetence. The next local elections in Louisiana may show a real backlash, if a recall movement or even impeachment proceedings are not organized before then. Except that FEMA is proving itself to be lead by incompetent and inept individuals. The military is proving to be the primary source of organized relief. |
#354
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"cjcampbell" wrote in message
oups.com... Peter R. wrote: Jay Honeck wrote: Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans -- and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by Katrina. Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US. This argument is starting to wear a little thin as more information becomes available. New Orleans and the state of Louisiana had a plan for evacuating more than a million people from the city, including providing transportation for up to 300,000 people who had no means of getting out themselves. Neither the governor nor the mayor (who has been very quick to blame everyone but himself) chose to implement this plan, despite the fact they had plenty of warning and all of the needed resources. If that turns out to be the case, then the mayor and governor are certainly among those at fault. But the above point still stands: whichever officials may have screwed up, it's still the case that thousands of people were stuck with no means of evacuation. The argument that people are unable to leave also weakens as we get more and more incidents of people refusing to leave when they are offered transportation, despite the fact that they are being told that they will get no more food or water or medical services if they stay. There have certainly been reports of such refusals now that the National Guard is on the scene. I can't tell yet how widespread it is. Anecdotally, though, the people staying put seem largely to be home owners who don't want to abandon their (well-stocked) homes, and thus are largely distinct from the stranded population that urgently needed prompt rescue. (Whether the holdouts will need rescue in a few weeks remains to be seen.) --Gary |
#355
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However, the cretins that have been
looting, raping, and shooting at rescuers represent the end product of a failed culture that has been propped up by an endless stream of tax dollars, in hopes that the inner city problems won't spread to the "nice" neighborhoods. What is your solution (not right now during rescue, but in general)? Well, we're drifting farther and farther afield from aviation, but I'll take a whack at this. There are simply no easy solutions to the problems caused by a culture that: - Humiliates those who excel academically... - Accepts and encourages very early, single-parent child-bearing... - Expects males to play little or no role in child rearing... - Has no social sanctions against absentee fathers... - Regards working 9 to 5 for "chump change" as "selling out to the Man" - Expects the Federal Government to fulfill every basic need... - Sees authority figures as the enemy... - Views the sale of drugs as an acceptable economic alternative... - Accepts violence as a normal way to solve disputes... Many explain away the development of the under-class culture as being a "relic from the days of slavery" -- but this doesn't explain the growing Latino and white aspects of this culture. There is far more going on here than simply the collapse of black society. For most of us, the inner city is a bizarro world where up is down, left is right, smart is dumb, and hard work is viewed as silly -- but for a huge (and growing) percentage of our inner-city population, it is just "life." And, as we've seen in the aftermath of Katrina, it has produced a violent and corrosive subculture that scares the bejeesus out of people when it's exposed. This whole phenomenon is so hard to understand -- God knows I've tried. I've sat down with black friends who have "made it out" and asked them to explain the ideals and values of the inner city to me in a way that makes logical sense -- and they are every bit as frustrated -- no, MORE frustrated -- by it than I am. Because, in short, there *is* no logic to it -- especially to those who are trapped in it. It's just an immediate gratification, get-through-the-day way of life that is made possible by oodles of tax support we now call "entitlements," which have allowed the development of a culture that no longer sanctions unproductive behavior. Over time, this has created a generational expectation and acceptance of personal behaviors that most people would regard as self-destructive. Fact: Early, single childbirth is the single highest behavioral correlation with poverty. Fact: Dropping out of high school correlates strongly with poverty and crime. Fact: Violence as a way of solving disputes often leads to prison. Eliminate these three problems, and you've largely eliminated the underclass in America. No cash, no entitlements required -- just a cultural sea change. But there are historic solutions. Take, for example, the Jews. For centuries, one of the most hated minority groups in the world, they came to dominate finance and many Fortune 500 businesses in America. By every measure, they have "made it out" by literally believing the mirror-image of every under-class belief I've outlined, above. They did it by banding together for mutual support, by selling and buying only from other Jewish-owned and operated businesses, and by making sure that their children received a terrific education. They overcame incredible obstacles of prejudice, language and distance by coming together, rather than ripping apart, as our inner cities continually do. I'm afraid solutions are going to take more than Bill Cosby pointing out the obvious. After all, how do you change the attitudes of an entire culture? It's going to take a complete -- and painful -- reassessment of our "Great Society" entitlement programs. We simply can't continue to provide the financial support that is enabling an entire segment of our population to self-destruct. It is morally and (from the standpoint of national survival) logically wrong to reward self-destructive behavior. Worse, although in the short term throwing money at the issue "makes the problems go away" so that polite society can get on with their lives -- after all, they're only killing each other, right? -- it has created a growing problem that cannot end well. We simply must face this issue and deal with it as a society, sooner than later, rather than meekly continuing to accept the Left's failed approach to the problem. And: what have you done in your former job except stepping _over_ the bodies not knowing if dead or high on drugs or whatnot? I survived. That was the best I could hope for at the time. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#356
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Jay Honeck wrote:
However, the cretins that have been looting, raping, and shooting at rescuers represent the end product of a failed culture that has been propped up by an endless stream of tax dollars, in hopes that the inner city problems won't spread to the "nice" neighborhoods. What is your solution (not right now during rescue, but in general)? Well, we're drifting farther and farther afield from aviation, but I'll take a whack at this. There are simply no easy solutions to the problems caused by a culture that: - Humiliates those who excel academically... - Accepts and encourages very early, single-parent child-bearing... - Expects males to play little or no role in child rearing... - Has no social sanctions against absentee fathers... - Regards working 9 to 5 for "chump change" as "selling out to the Man" - Expects the Federal Government to fulfill every basic need... - Sees authority figures as the enemy... - Views the sale of drugs as an acceptable economic alternative... - Accepts violence as a normal way to solve disputes... Many explain away the development of the under-class culture as being a "relic from the days of slavery" -- but this doesn't explain the growing Latino and white aspects of this culture. There is far more going on here than simply the collapse of black society. For most of us, the inner city is a bizarro world where up is down, left is right, smart is dumb, and hard work is viewed as silly -- but for a huge (and growing) percentage of our inner-city population, it is just "life." And, as we've seen in the aftermath of Katrina, it has produced a violent and corrosive subculture that scares the bejeesus out of people when it's exposed. This whole phenomenon is so hard to understand -- God knows I've tried. I've sat down with black friends who have "made it out" and asked them to explain the ideals and values of the inner city to me in a way that makes logical sense -- and they are every bit as frustrated -- no, MORE frustrated -- by it than I am. Because, in short, there *is* no logic to it -- especially to those who are trapped in it. It's just an immediate gratification, get-through-the-day way of life that is made possible by oodles of tax support we now call "entitlements," which have allowed the development of a culture that no longer sanctions unproductive behavior. Over time, this has created a generational expectation and acceptance of personal behaviors that most people would regard as self-destructive. Fact: Early, single childbirth is the single highest behavioral correlation with poverty. Fact: Dropping out of high school correlates strongly with poverty and crime. Fact: Violence as a way of solving disputes often leads to prison. Eliminate these three problems, and you've largely eliminated the underclass in America. No cash, no entitlements required -- just a cultural sea change. But there are historic solutions. Take, for example, the Jews. For centuries, one of the most hated minority groups in the world, they came to dominate finance and many Fortune 500 businesses in America. By every measure, they have "made it out" by literally believing the mirror-image of every under-class belief I've outlined, above. They did it by banding together for mutual support, by selling and buying only from other Jewish-owned and operated businesses, and by making sure that their children received a terrific education. They overcame incredible obstacles of prejudice, language and distance by coming together, rather than ripping apart, as our inner cities continually do. I'm afraid solutions are going to take more than Bill Cosby pointing out the obvious. After all, how do you change the attitudes of an entire culture? It's going to take a complete -- and painful -- reassessment of our "Great Society" entitlement programs. We simply can't continue to provide the financial support that is enabling an entire segment of our population to self-destruct. It is morally and (from the standpoint of national survival) logically wrong to reward self-destructive behavior. Worse, although in the short term throwing money at the issue "makes the problems go away" so that polite society can get on with their lives -- after all, they're only killing each other, right? -- it has created a growing problem that cannot end well. We simply must face this issue and deal with it as a society, sooner than later, rather than meekly continuing to accept the Left's failed approach to the problem. And: what have you done in your former job except stepping _over_ the bodies not knowing if dead or high on drugs or whatnot? I survived. That was the best I could hope for at the time. Well put, Jay. We've thrown trillions at the problem and the problem persists. Money is not the answer. -- Saville Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm |
#357
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"gregg" wrote in message ... Jay Honeck wrote: Worse, although in the short term throwing money at the issue "makes the problems go away" so that polite society can get on with their lives -- after all, they're only killing each other, right? -- it has created a growing problem that cannot end well. We simply must face this issue and deal with it as a society, sooner than later, rather than meekly continuing to accept the Left's failed approach to the problem. Very reminiscent of the Palistinians and other in the Middle East that won't face up to their problems, instead blame others most noticably Israel. Well put, Jay. We've thrown trillions at the problem and the problem persists. Money is not the answer. Persists? Try "has been exacerbated". Thomas Sowell has done a ton of work and published copious materials on how progress for blacks has been stunted since their progress peaked in the late 1950's. Tom S. (No...not Sowell) |
#358
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"JH" == Jay Honeck writes:
That, and no demonstration of any empathy for anyone, not in the current disaster, not in the past. You are a sad creature. JH Please. Try to keep up with the topic. We're not talking JH about the true victims of the hurricane or the flooding here JH -- those people deserve and have received our empathy and JH support. Why, Jay? You with all your tremendous wisdom and experience have already told us that all the poor have a POS car and they should have simply driven out of harm's way. Stay on topic? You remind me of the marxists I used to argue with when I was living in a huge latin american city years ago. As soon as I would counter them on one topic they would simply change subjects. This topic is about Katrina's fall-out. See the Subject: line? You're trying to move it to some neocon theory of inner city poverty, a subject you know everything about because you seemed to have collected money from welfare people for years. Given your obvious ignorance about most every other non-aviation subject written about in this group, your knowledge and opinions are screwed up and bass-ackwards. Want to try lecturing us some more about flood return periods? |
#359
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"gregg" wrote in message ... Well put, Jay. We've thrown trillions at the problem and the problem persists. Money is not the answer. Not only is government money not the answer it inflates most of the problems. But it gets votes for the politicians that divert money from beneficial programs to welfare programs. If some of the welfare money had been earmarked for strengthening the levees around NO we might not be discussing any of this. -- Saville Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm |
#360
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Matt Whiting wrote:
What a coward. Coming from the man who killfiled me over the few extra blank lines in my signature. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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