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#31
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#32
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rnf2 writes:
One way used was radio direction finding nad measuing the angles on the source of german propraganda broadcasts... DF on known emitters is an old ploy. You can tell where YOU are, or where IT is. That was why Eisenhower's SHAEF transmitter was in the area of Patton's First US Army Group. There was also one German navaid that was not jammed but spoofed; a receiver at one end of England listened to the modulated German transmitter. The audio went across Britain to where a transmitter on the same frequency rebroadcast it. Since the UK transmitter was closer to the bomber....... -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#33
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David Lesher wrote:
nt (Krztalizer) writes: They built "Rotterdam" / H2S duplicates as well. H2S was forbidden over land for quite a while. It was vital to the Uboat campaign and the boffins figured that if used over Germany, one *would* be captured and the secret blown. [There was no way to destroy the magnatron w/o taking out the aircraft as well....] That argument was made by the RN/Coastal Command, but Bomber Command won the decision (by Churchill), and H2S went into service over land right away. And a more or less intact magnetron was captured on one of the very first missions, from a Stirling shot down near/over Rotterdam (whence its German code name, Rotterdam Gerate) on 2 February 1943. Guy |
#34
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"David Lesher" wrote in message ... rnf2 writes: There was also one German navaid that was not jammed but spoofed; a receiver at one end of England listened to the modulated German transmitter. The audio went across Britain to where a transmitter on the same frequency rebroadcast it. Since the UK transmitter was closer to the bomber....... Operation "Domino" This was Y-Gerat (Y-Device) or Wotan II. The transmitter used was the old 1930's Baird TV transmitter at Alexandra Palace. It was a very effective countermeasure. Wotan was the Norse god with only one eye (one beam). It was also known as 'Benito'. Basically the Y-Gerat worked by transmitting a single beam with Lorenz characteristics, morse dots received if you were on one side of the beam, dashes on the other and an equisignal of continuous tone if you were in the centre of the beam and on course. The bomb release point was done by means of a kind of remote Distance Measuring Equipment, in that a signal was sent to a transponder in the aircraft and a response returned, by measuring the delay between transmission of the interrogation pulse and reception of the response it was possible to calculate the distance fairly accurately. A signal was sent to the aircraft to release the bombs at the correct point allowing for altitude, speed and distance to target etc. The countermeasure involved intercepting the aircraft transponder signal and retransmitting it through the TV transmitter, which caused a false distance reading. The earlier Knickebein (crooked leg) 2 beam system and the multi beam X-gerat (X-device) had already been countered. The loss of these was actually quite a blow, as the later Y-Gerat was only capable of handling one aircraft at a time, whereas Knickebein was in every bomber. The Germans created a "Pathfinder" force of their own, KG100, to use it. Knickebein worked on the normal Lorenz frequencies around 30mhz and the first jammers (code name 'Aspirin' to counter the beams which were code named 'Headache') were actually medical diathermy units which produced powerful broadband noise. The CO |
#35
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David Lesher wrote in message ...
nt (Krztalizer) writes: They built "Rotterdam" / H2S duplicates as well. H2S was forbidden over land for quite a while. It was vital to the Uboat campaign and the boffins figured that if used over Germany, one *would* be captured and the secret blown. [There was no way to destroy the magnatron w/o taking out the aircraft as well....] They were right. If it was that vital they would not have used it. The people who 'defined' vital were trying to bomb Germany. Oddly enough it was Bomber Harris who appreciated that bombing U-Boat yards and basses was a complete waste of effort. The Germans were scammed into thinking their Metox boxes were leaking radiation which were being used to track them. It was a technical possibility and so they bought into it. That delayed the development of a H2S detector (Naxos). |
#36
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Ganton Pretz wrote:
If it was that vital they would not have used it. The people who 'defined' vital were trying to bomb Germany. Oddly enough it was Bomber Harris who appreciated that bombing U-Boat yards and basses was a complete waste of effort. The Germans were scammed into thinking their Metox boxes were leaking radiation which were being used to track them. It was a technical possibility and so they bought into it. That delayed the development of a H2S detector (Naxos). What did "H2S" stand for, anyway. (Sounds like dihydrogen sulphide to me.) Sorry if it has already been posted, I missed that part of the thread. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
#37
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"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message ... Ganton Pretz wrote: If it was that vital they would not have used it. The people who 'defined' vital were trying to bomb Germany. Oddly enough it was Bomber Harris who appreciated that bombing U-Boat yards and basses was a complete waste of effort. The Germans were scammed into thinking their Metox boxes were leaking radiation which were being used to track them. It was a technical possibility and so they bought into it. That delayed the development of a H2S detector (Naxos). What did "H2S" stand for, anyway. (Sounds like dihydrogen sulphide to me.) Sorry if it has already been posted, I missed that part of the thread. There are at least versions of the story about the naming of the radar 1) Its original name was "Home Sweet Home" which was shortened to H2S 2) Its original name was TF (for Town Finder) but a different code name was required and an RAF type suggested 'H2S because it stinks' Keith |
#38
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: How did the Brits do it? From: "Keith Willshaw" Date: 3/10/04 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... I think back to the war and the RAF heavies on their night missions. Missions flown in the winter usually were in atrocioius weather where there was no view of the gound and the sky above was overcast. There was no way to shoot at star fix or take a dirft reading from the ground. Working dead reckoning from England deep into Germany and any change in wind dorection or velocity that went undetected made dead reckoning navigation a hit and miss proposition. Often it was not just miss, it was gross miss. Knowing all this how could the RAF ever hope to pull off these winter night missions successfully? What was the logic that made them keep flying under these hopeless navigation conditions? Anyone know? This is a complex subject and a matter of some controversy but unusually these days is on topic so I'll give it a go. The RAF began the war in 1939 with a plan that envisaged daylight precision bombing of military targets only. Unfortunately catastrophic losses on early raids, 50% and higher, proved this to be impossible. It was quite impossible politically and from a morale point of view to simply stop bombing the Germans This was especially true after the Blitz. An attempt was made to use the techniques you describe to bomb at night and the results as you would expect were very mixed. In 1940 raids were mainly aimed at the invasion barges in French and Belgian Ports and these being relatively easy to locate at night results were acceptable. However as targets deep in Germany were attacked it was evident that the expected results were not being delivered. An official report commissioned by the war office from the economist David Miles Bensusan-Butt revealed that bombing was shockingly inaccurate. Churchill recognised the importance of the report - "this is a very serious paper and seems to require urgent attention" and temporarily suspended bombing while a solution was sought. This was to consist of four parts 1) The adoption of better navigational aids 2) Better crew training 3) Larger better equipped 4 engined bombers 4) A switch of tactics Essentially the RAF decided that if they couldnt hit precision targets then they would switch to targetting things they couldnt miss, this was area bombing. The idea being that if you couldnt hit the arms factory in the city you'd settle for flattening the entire metropolis. As the war progressed navigational aids like Gee and Oboe along with Radar aids like H2S and the use of Pathfinders did improve accuracy a great deal so that by 1944 the RAF were able to atatck and obliterate targets varying from troop concentrations in Normandy to entire cities. Keith Of course Gee Box and Oboe came very late in the war. I flew a number of Gee missions as the war drew to a close. But how anyone can do long range dead reckoning when wind drift and velocity cannot be reliably determined, with no view of the stars or gound, makes things a bit hopeless. But I would say that 90% or more of those missions were flown without any electronic or radar aids at all. Not really Art Bomber command flew its first mission using Gee in late 1941. On March 3 1942 the first major raid that utilised gee equipped aircraft dropping flares for the main force was made against the Renault works at Billancourt in France. 223 of 235 aircraft found their target). Losses were very light (one Wellington was lost) , and damage was evaluated as 'heavy' I don't really think they put that factory out of action. As you say they needed to physically illuminate the target. By mid summer 1942 almost all BC aircraft had Gee. H2S began arriving in service in 1943. Knowing where one actually is and bombing accurately are related issues but strictly speaking quite different. GEE put a bomber in the general place it wanted to bomb and most of the bombs might just do a bit of damage to something in the same town. |
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