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#31
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skyrides are at it again?
Frank,
Based on your message, it sounds like www.800soaring.com at least attempts to behave responsibly. However, observations thus far suggest that www.1800skyride.com is engaging in unethical practices: - Reusing photos without permission (I also assume the video is also not their own) - Plagiarizing text from other websites (including the SSA and Nutmeg Soaring) - Failing to establish agreements with operators (if they just call, verify FAST, and then hang up... that is not an agreement) - Allowing online purchase of the "Glider Ride Gift Certificate" without any information on the specific locations, possibly baiting customers who will be unable to use the certificate without full and fair disclosure of what they are buying Based on the online purchase link the price is $199, so they are marking this up 100%. It sounds like they are trying to take advantage of the FAST program. If they want to sell rides, let them resell commercial rides based on a written agreement between ride operators and the marketing company (like 800soaring apparently does). That way all parties are engaging in an open transaction, knowing what they are in for, and how the profits will be shared. The FAST program is designed to allow people with a serious interest in soaring instruction to get a start. The 1800skyride website does not accurately represent the FAST program or its intent, yet this is what they are apparently reselling. Is there not a rule against reselling FAST certificates at a profit? It seems that given the intent of the FAST program, only FAST member operators or the SSA should allowed to sell these. 1800skyride appears to be using dubious business practices to capture excess value from the consumer by charging a much higher price. Both the customer and the program are being violated in my opinion. Furthermore, given the prior company history, and the questionable approach of their current start it sounds like business as usual, not “new management.” (Perhaps the new holding company is just a cover for the old owners.) The old approach apparently led to many unhappy customers, and it is likely to produce the same results again. Soaring needs promotion, but not internet third-party promoters who are behaving irresponsibly and unethically. As Rex points out, it wouldn't take much for the key stakeholders (pilots, clubs, and commercial operators) to take the lead in improving promotion and marketing with a little help and guidance. That approach would create real value for the sport. Mike Hendron |
#32
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skyrides are at it again?
In the past skyride was hard to deal with and had questionable
practices but with the new ownership they have made a complete turn around. Our sport is terribly under exposed and under promoted. I make the same money on a ride if they come to me thru skyride or if they come to me directly. I pay other people a commission for bringing me business, and I don't mind if skyride makes some money on the customers that they bring to our sport. The SSA does not do enough to get soaring out to the public. We need more exposure in my opinion, and I think skyride is helping do that now. Boggs |
#33
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skyrides are at it again?
On Aug 25, 7:29*am, mgh3485 wrote:
Frank, Based on your message, it sounds likewww.800soaring.comat least attempts to behave responsibly. However, observations thus far suggest thatwww.1800skyride.comis engaging in unethical practices: - Reusing photos without permission (I also assume the video is also not their own) - Plagiarizing text from other websites (including the SSA and Nutmeg Soaring) - Failing to establish agreements with operators (if they just call, verify FAST, and then hang up... that is not an agreement) - Allowing online purchase of the "Glider Ride Gift Certificate" without any information on the specific locations, possibly baiting customers who will be unable to use the certificate without full and fair disclosure of what they are buying Based on the online purchase link the price is $199, so they are marking this up 100%. *It sounds like they are trying to take advantage of the FAST program. *If they want to sell rides, let them resell commercial rides based on a written agreement between ride operators and the marketing company (like 800soaring apparently does). *That way all parties are engaging in an open transaction, knowing what they are in for, and how the profits will be shared. The FAST program is designed to allow people with a serious interest in soaring instruction to get a start. *The 1800skyride website does not accurately represent the FAST program or its intent, yet this is what they are apparently reselling. *Is there not a rule against reselling FAST certificates at a profit? *It seems that given the intent of the FAST program, only FAST member operators or the SSA should allowed to sell these. *1800skyride appears to be using dubious business practices to capture excess value from the consumer by charging a much higher price. *Both the customer and the program are being violated in my opinion. Furthermore, given the prior company history, and the questionable approach of their current start it sounds like business as usual, not “new management.” *(Perhaps the new holding company is just a cover for the old owners.) *The old approach apparently led to many unhappy customers, and it is likely to produce the same results again. Soaring needs promotion, but not internet third-party promoters who are behaving irresponsibly and unethically. *As Rex points out, it wouldn't take much for the key stakeholders (pilots, clubs, and commercial operators) to take the lead in improving promotion and marketing with a little help and guidance. *That approach would create real value for the sport. Mike Hendron This is on the SSA EXCOM agenda for this evening. Have a look at this approach http://www.discoverycenter.cc/testup...ses/il0075.htm It reflects an acceptable price for the CC registration (it used to be $100) and a very reasonable price for the service AND LUNCH (it was formerly $90 IIRC). The first day, a few years ago, 20 people showed up. They put a six student limit on registration following that one. Drawing on all of their resources they managed to serve all of the 20 students, but had to cancel some of their other customers. It's a two hour drive from Chicago, plus toll roads. Now extend that a bit to a mini-course of three lessons spread over at least two days and there you go. This is a very effective outreach approach that soaring organizations should consider developing locally. Another offering might be a glider pilot's ground school at an an adult continuing education program. And then there's the commercial operator that sold 500 flights in one day via Groupon in his local market. Priced to make a profit. We're still awaiting the final assessment on the fulfillment. Frank Whiteley |
#34
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skyrides are at it again?
On Aug 24, 7:24*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 24, 2:02*pm, T wrote: On Aug 24, 7:47*am, Bill D wrote: On Aug 24, 8:01*am, Frank Whiteley wrote: On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote: Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because they cannibalize business from customers already searching for them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed gift certificates. If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that commercial operations would see a loss of business and participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem for the non-profit club status? The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise found them and so are most likely helping increase their business. However, if most of the people sent to them through the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST certificate. Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA business member since this may cause some legal problems for the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse. Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates. You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily towards customers planning to use them at their own location. This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad experience trying to kick out a business member once for similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I heard. A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with them through the third party ticket agency and who really want a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work with any third party ticket agency that I can see. I would like to add a bit of information to this thread. 1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October 2010. *The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. *When consulted, I advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized domains and targeted search placement. *I advised them to have an agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. *If an operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists. FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill rides. *However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and invitations to become involved long term should include this emphasis. *It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and competition. *Individual participation in those aspects varies and the promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also varies. *FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become involved. Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages and refer to agreeable organizations? *An SSA member and help recently sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming packages. *So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it while at Oshkosh. Soaring Adventures of America,www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA business member. *They are not selling FAST packages, but glider rides. *If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. *I suspect this is probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent. The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'. If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty. Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. *Now if a soaring organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering, again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. *It would be dumb to offer anything without a redemption agreement. I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion. Frank Whiteley Soaring does need promotion. The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. *However, at $99 there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. *It usually works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run. There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless games are played with the money. *This is mainly betting on a low redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. *None of these tactics reflect well on the SSA. Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting it most kindly. *Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT) doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in general. I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting demand. We need more information from SSA HQ on this "deal" with Soaring Sports. We are a club, we do not advertise except through the SSA Where to Fly web pages. We are limited in how many students we can handle at a given time because we only fly weekends, one primary 2-33 trainer and one tow plane. There are times when we have a waiting list for new students wanting to learn to fly. We accept the SSA FAST certificates and keep a very small quantity available to offer new students. It is interesting that the call from soaring sports asking if we accepted the SSA FAST certificate told us that we would have to redeem "their" certificate with them for $50 and SSA for another $50. So we would have to redeem it twice? We are Las Vegas Valley Soaring Assoc, LVVSA,702.470.1420, at Jean NV for over 20 years, a club not offering "rides for hire to the general public. We have been visited my many SSA members from other clubs around the country. The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson,702.470.1010. Mr. Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons to Mr Henderson. Off group. Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider episode, Michael Henderson? Frank Whiteley Yes, and it was two different gliders. T |
#35
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skyrides are at it again?
On Aug 26, 9:43*pm, T wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:24*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote: The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson,702.470.1010. Mr. Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons to Mr Henderson. Off group. Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider episode, Michael Henderson? Frank Whiteley Yes, and it was two different gliders. T Clearly, as the defunct Sailplane Enterprises name was on the flying version;^) |
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