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#31
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , brian whatcott wrote: Alan Baker wrote: Interesting comment: what would YOU call it when the fabric on the upper wing surface wants to pull away from the ribs? Air pressure from inside the wing pushing up on it more than the air above is pushing down... Let me take a wild guess he you did physics for an uundergraduate degree. Is that right? Brian W No. But it doesn't matter. If the fabric is moving upward, it can only be because there is more pressure on its bottom surface than there is on its top surface. I'm kind of curious about how that higher pressure got on the bottom of that wing though... If the curvature of the upper surface lowers the pressure, then even if the pressure on the lower surface is just the ambient pressure, it will be *higher* than the upper surface. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#32
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
brian whatcott wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , brian whatcott wrote: Alan Baker wrote: Interesting comment: what would YOU call it when the fabric on the upper wing surface wants to pull away from the ribs? Air pressure from inside the wing pushing up on it more than the air above is pushing down... Let me take a wild guess he you did physics for an uundergraduate degree. Is that right? Brian W No. But it doesn't matter. If the fabric is moving upward, it can only be because there is more pressure on its bottom surface than there is on its top surface. It seems that you are uncomfortable with the entire concept of suction. For example, how do you suppose suction cups work? The pressure outside the cup keeps it in place. Or how about a suction pump that happens to be limited to a 30 ft lift? Because a vacuum cannot do any actual pulling, you can only lift water as far as the pressure allows, right. Well duh, it's also atmospheric pressure that enables suction pumps and suction cups etc., etc. Yes indeed , but it's an academic issue at the junior high level, isn't it? Yup. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#33
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
"Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#34
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
"Morgans" wrote: "Beryl" wrote He looked inside the wing, at the entire upper surface, at the lower surface... that pretty much covers most of it. Air can't be in tension. Yes, but the person that observed that the pressure on the bottom was one third responsible (for lift) and the low pressure on top was responsible for two thirds of the lift is also correct, when you look at the wing as a whole system, even if those fractions are approximate. Which I correctly identified if the OP meant it in the appropriate terms. I think his view of individual points of observations are splitting toadstools. But that is my opinion, and like everyone, we all have but-holes and opinions. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#35
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
Alan Baker wrote:
In article , "Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree. In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure. ('splain why?) But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing, the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it? |
#36
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , "Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree. Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing experience anything but a downward force. In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure. ('splain why?) Bernoulli. But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing, the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it? Which I never disagreed with. But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#37
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
Alan Baker wrote:
In article , cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , "Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree. Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing experience anything but a downward force. In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure. ('splain why?) Bernoulli. But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing, the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it? Which I never disagreed with. But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed. Ok, be that way. I actually see what you are trying to say. And, have no real issues with it. Myopic, but not technically incorrect. Richard (That's just my own opinion, but it works for me) |
#38
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , "Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree. Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing experience anything but a downward force. In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure. ('splain why?) Bernoulli. But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing, the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it? Which I never disagreed with. But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed. Ok, be that way. Be what way: accurate? Thanks, I think I will. I actually see what you are trying to say. And, have no real issues with it. Then why say: "I find I must disagree". Myopic, but not technically incorrect. Not myopic: accurate. Understand the world AS IT IS. Richard (That's just my own opinion, but it works for me) -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#39
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
Alan Baker wrote:
In article , cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , "Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree. Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing experience anything but a downward force. In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure. ('splain why?) Bernoulli. But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing, the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it? Which I never disagreed with. But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed. Ok, be that way. Be what way: accurate? Thanks, I think I will. I actually see what you are trying to say. And, have no real issues with it. Then why say: "I find I must disagree". Myopic, but not technically incorrect. Not myopic: accurate. Understand the world AS IT IS. Richard (That's just my own opinion, but it works for me) Einstein's greatest gift what that of Relativity. Each has his own unique perception based on location relative to an event. Each sees something different - but ALL can understand the other's perceptions. And here you are claiming all truth... |
#40
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visualisation of the lift distribution over a wing
In article ,
cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , cavelamb wrote: Alan Baker wrote: In article , "Morgans" wrote: "Alan Baker" wrote Anyone who thinks that the pressure of a fluid on a surface can act in any direction but towards the surface is simply wrong. I see. You are not lookng at the wing as a system, but taking an observation at one point only, without reguard to what is happening around it. Point made. Nope. I'm making the point that the upper surface contributes absolutely *no* lifting force. None. Zero. In fact, it provides a downward force. Every time. Sorry, Alan, old boy, I find must disagree. Disagree all you want, it won't make the upper surface of the wing experience anything but a downward force. In actuality, BOTH surfaces are below ambient pressure. ('splain why?) Bernoulli. But without that reduction of the pressure across the top curve of the wing, the pressure below it can't do much at all, can it? Which I never disagreed with. But anyone who thinks the upper surface of the wing is experiencing anything but a downward force is just sadly misinformed. Ok, be that way. Be what way: accurate? Thanks, I think I will. I actually see what you are trying to say. And, have no real issues with it. Then why say: "I find I must disagree". Myopic, but not technically incorrect. Not myopic: accurate. Understand the world AS IT IS. Richard (That's just my own opinion, but it works for me) Einstein's greatest gift what that of Relativity. Each has his own unique perception based on location relative to an event. Each sees something different - but ALL can understand the other's perceptions. And here you are claiming all truth... Nope. Not *all* truth. One truth: The top of a wing doesn't *pull* an aircraft up, it just pushes down less than the bottom surface pushes up. And that is the truth. Period. Full stop. -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
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