If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:42:48 GMT, Jose wrote:
In the US, if you do not do this, you may not fly in IMC or under IFR even in VMC (though you may fly VFR with a safety pilot and do practice approaches in VMC). You may fly under IFR; you just cannot act as PIC under IFR. The pilot not flying can act as PIC, while you manipulate the controls. --ron |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:15:35 GMT, Matt Young wrote:
Assuming you're talking about a typical single engine aircraft, or any other that only requires one crew member, the one operating the controls would be pic while taxiing regardless of what you plan on doing the rest of the flight. The safety pilot is just a passenger when you don't have the hood on (I'm assuming you don't wear it for taxi lol) because the safety pilot is not a required crew member at this time. This is my understanding based on what I have been taught. You are close. Under the (US) regulations, the safety pilot is not necessarily PIC at any time, unless there is an agreement for him to be PIC. However, he can be PIC at any time during the flight, even when taxiing and the other pilot is manipulating the controls, if that is what the two pilots agree upon (assuming the SP is qualified and current to act as PIC in the a/c). However, he may only LOG PIC time during that time when he is acting as safety pilot. --ron |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
5pguy wrote:
Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR every 6 months to remain current. If you do this, you are allowed to have passengers while in IMC. This is legal. If you are outside "current" ; meaning 6 months and 1 day since you last fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can only fullfill this reg while in VFR conditions. So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs. This is what I was referring to for passengers. Your safty pilot is a passenager, even thou they are PIC. That's my understanding. If you are outside of reg 61.57(c) (6 months, 6 approaches, hold and following the VOR), then you must remain in VRF conditions. While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is responsible. Also, I was told that the safty pilot must be "ok'd" by us ( the insurance company) prior you your flight. So, I contact my club. They then told me that I can not simply asking another VFR pilot who is current to fly with me as a safty pilot. I think we were all told in IFR training, that any VFR current pilot of type aircraft was ok to use. The club said that I must get someone from the club to be a safty piloty and yes, it must be cleared by the club first. So I figured that if the club must ok it first, then the insurance company must have cleared a list of safty pilots for that club. Check it out with our insurance provider. Wow, both a clueless club and a clueless insurance company. A double-header! :-) Matt |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
"5pguy" wrote in message
oups.com... Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR every 6 months to remain current. If you do this, you are allowed to have passengers while in IMC. If you're current, you are allowed to be PIC in IMC. Otherwise, you're not, with or without passengers. Saying "if you're current, you're allowed to have passengers while in IMC" is like saying "if you're current, you're allowed to wear a green sweatshirt while in IMC"--it's technically true, but only because you're allowed to be PIC in IMC at all (with whomever or whatever you like). If you are outside "current"; meaning 6 months and 1 day since you last fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can only fullfill this reg while in VFR conditions. No, that's incorrect. It's true that you can only be PIC in VFR conditions. But you can still fly IFR to regain currency (or for any other purpose) if another pilot (instructor or otherwise) is the PIC. So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs. No, that's legal if the safety pilot is PIC. Otherwise, it's not legal. This is what I was referring to for passengers. Your safty pilot is a passenager, even thou they are PIC. That's my understanding. That's incorrect. If the other pilot is PIC, then *you're* the passenger, even if you're doing the flying. While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is responsible. *If* your safety pilot is PIC for the flight (which would have to be the case if the flight is IFR and you aren't instrument-current), then indeed the safety pilot is responsible for whatever occurs during the flight (including while taxiing). He's responsible in that case not because he's the safety pilot, but because he's PIC. The club said that I must get someone from the club to be a safty piloty and yes, it must be cleared by the club first. That's sensible. The safety pilot is a required crew member (whether PIC or not), so the club should be as careful about authorizing safety pilots as they are about authorizing PICs. --Gary |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Matt Young wrote:
Assuming you're talking about a typical single engine aircraft, or any other that only requires one crew member, the one operating the controls would be pic while taxiing regardless of what you plan on doing the rest of the flight. The regs only say who is qualified to be PIC for a given flight, they don't say who *is* PIC. If there are two qualified pilot, they need to decide between themselves who is PIC. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
|
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Ron Rosenfeld Dec 19, 4:34 am show options
Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR every 6 months to remain current. Not quite. There is no requirement to "follow a VOR". You are probably thinking of the requirement to intercept and track a course using navigation systems. There is no requirement that the navigation system be a VOR. Yes, I was thinking "tracking". Thanks for the correction. If you do this, you are allowed to have passengers while in IMC. Not necessarily. The rules for carrying passengers are different from the rules for acting as PIC under IFR. If you have not done at least three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days, you would not be allowed to have passengers in IMC even if you are current instruments as you describe. Ron - So, I was focusing on passengers in IMC and had forgotten to mention the 90 day rule. I was only thinking the 180 day rule. If you are outside "current"; meaning 6 months and 1 day since you last fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can only fullfill this reg while in VFR conditions. Again, not quite. There is no requirement in the regs that currency must be done in VFR conditions. You are probably confused by the fact that this non-current pilot cannot act as PIC under IFR. This prohibition would be true regardless of the weather conditions. However, there is no requirement that this pilot be acting as PIC when fulfilling the currency requirement for flying IFR. Yes, but my reply was to the original poster of flying in and out of IMC with a safty pilot. If an IFR pilot had not met reg 61.57(c) of ... (i) At least six instrument approaches; (ii) Holding procedures; and (iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems. in the past 180 days, and then asking someone to be their SP, in IMC conditions is not within the regs. This is "assuming" they have met the 90 day requirment. Removing the fact that CFII's are not in this formula as well. True, they don't need a SP when outisde the 180 days, but they can't have a passenger until 61.57(c) has been met. So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs. Again, not quite. There is nothing in the regulations precluding the safety pilot from being designated as PIC under these circumstances (provided the SP is qualified to do so). If that is the case, there is no regulation being broken. Correct Ron, but the poster did not disclose this information. While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is responsible. Also, I was told that the safty pilot must be "ok'd" by us ( the insurance company) prior you your flight. That is purely an insurance company regulation without basis in the FAR's. My insurer does have an open pilot specification. Many do, some don't. I brought up insurance because pilots that I talk to, never thought about ckecking with their insurance company regarding SP coverage. Yes, nothing to do with the regs. Thanks Ron for bringing more in depth discussion into this thread. |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
On 19 Dec 2004 20:33:46 -0800, "5pguy" wrote:
.... I think there may be some disconnects here due to imprecision in writing, although there may be some conceptual issues also. There are a number of things one may not do in IMC if one is not "IFR current". He can't carry elephants in the airplane for hire, either. But the salient point is that one may not act as PIC under IFR, even solo. So in his original scenario, the reason he could not accomplish it was NOT because he was arguably carrying a passenger, but rather because he could not act as PIC under IFR. Note also that there is a difference between IMC and IFR. IMC refers only to the weather conditions. IFR refers to the rules under which the flight is conducted. So the non-current instrument pilot may not act as PIC in an aircraft flying under IFR, even if the weather is VMC. With regard to OP, the only way he could legally accomplish his described flight, would be if the SP were acting as PIC. Obviously, in order for the SP to act as PIC, he must be qualified to do so. And, realistically, the SP would have to be acting as PIC for the entire flight since, as I read the scenario, the flight would have to be conducted under IFR. (Not necessarily IMC for the entire flight, but certainly IFR for the entire flight). (Let's please not get into the purely hypothetical of cancelling IFR whenever it is legal VFR, and refiling before the weather becomes IMC again). I would be surprised if the insurance policy had a clause specifically mentioning "safety pilot". It is more likely that the policy has a clause regulating who may act as PIC, and the club has a policy (or a misinterpretation of the regulations) indicating that a safety pilot must be PIC. ....onward through the fog... --ron |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
wrote in message ... On 18 Dec 2004 21:24:47 -0800, "5pguy" wrote: A pilot is njot allowed to even file an IFR flight plan if he is not current, Where did you get that? |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|