Checklist formats

I'll apologize for blowing my top, and anyway, the remark was not directed
at you.

Information from our insurance company reveals that there are lots of
glider pilots who are flying only 10-25 hours per year. For these folks a
check list and a procedure are probably the same thing.

My earlier comment said IF I WERE TO USE THIS CHECK LIST, I would modify
it in a particular manner....

I certainly agree, and teach my students that the pattern is no place for
reading check lists -- get it done early, and especially so if it must be
read.

At 14:15 29 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
On Mar 28, 3:00=A0pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
OK, hotshots,

Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.

We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.

Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to
help
u=
s
keep flying. =A0Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots)
is
=
to
fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
contests and it isn't the Indy 500.

DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!

At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:56=3DA0am, "kirk.stant" =A0wrote:
Oh, good grief! =3DA0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe
you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =3DA0The control
feel
i=
s
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? =3DA0Why? =3DA0You'll know as soon as you try
to
open
th=3D
em
and can alter your pattern then. =3DA0If that's too complex,
maybe
you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? =3DA0You mean that you aren't constantly aware
of
th=
e
win=3D
d
direction and speed? =3DA0Drift, crab? =3DA0Should you really be
up
there
alone?

Check trim? =3DA0Have you been holding constant pressure on the
stic=
k?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =3DA0Should
you
b=
e
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: =3DA0CHAOTIC. =3DA0What the heck did that
me=
an?
=3DA0=3D
I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: =3DA0"All shiny switches -
Outboard=3D
"
and before landing it was: =3DA0"Muff 91, gear check, full
stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =3DA0I
know,
some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne
is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! =A0Did we fly together? =A0I holler over the side to my
crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear
-
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

Now, now... Nobody's telling anybody to get out of the sky.

I'm only objecting to the mind-set that you MUST use a checklist. In
the traffic pattern is no place to be reading a book on how to fly
your glider. You should know what to do, when to do it, and you
should know your glider well enough to feel when things aren't right,
i.e., wings still full, dive brakes not open, glider not yet on the
ground. If you need a mnemonic to remember these things, fine, but
please don't be flipping charts on the top of the panel while sharing
the pattern with me.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:29:21 -0700, Andy wrote:

The extremes range between mnemonic+short, and written+long.

It is possible to skewer the middle ground with written+short: our club
gliders have a piece of Dymo tape on the panel that reads CBSIFTCBE.

With only one exception during the
preflight checks the crew responded to "cockpit door" with "closed and
locked". That was interesting because the door was secured wide open to
allow instrumentation wiring to pass to the rear cabin.

:-)

Question: how easy was it for the crew to check that the door was locked,
visually or otherwise, without getting up and rattling the handle? If it
wasn't possible I'd suggest the 'cockpit door' item was dead in the water
and best removed no matter what DHS/FAA might have to say about it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

On Mar 29, 1:25*pm, Mark Jardini wrote:
Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

I tend to think it is more the result of thorough training and
constant practice, in an environment where you have to actually do
something while flying the plane all the time (instead of watching the
glass while george does the driving). And that applies to pretty much
all military flying, or professional flying like cropdusters and
medivac helos.

Interestingly, serious (XC, contest, acro) glider flying is in many
ways very similar to tactical flying in fighters - just a bit
slower.

As glider pilots, we tend to have only basic (if often excellent)
training, then it's up to us to develop and maintain currency and
advance our skills.

That takes time and dedication. And money - for those 5000' tows on
calm winter days when you go up to practice the basics even though you
have 2000 hrs in your glider. Many glider pilots just aren't willing
(or able) to do that.

Perhaps that is what leads to "checklists" that read like a page out
of a training manual - and perhaps they are necessary for many
pilots. But judging by our accident record, that approach may not be
the best...

Kirk
66

On Mar 29, 4:24*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Mar 29, 1:25*pm, Mark Jardini wrote:

Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

I tend to think it is more the result of thorough training and
constant practice, in an environment where you have to actually do
something while flying the plane all the time (instead of watching the
glass while george does the driving). *And that applies to pretty much
all military flying, or professional flying like cropdusters and
medivac helos.

Interestingly, serious (XC, contest, acro) glider flying is in many
ways very similar to tactical flying in fighters - just a bit
slower.

As glider pilots, we tend to have only basic (if often excellent)
training, then it's up to us to develop and maintain currency and
advance our skills.

That takes time and dedication. *And money - for those 5000' tows on
calm winter days when you go up to practice the basics even though you
have 2000 hrs in your glider. *Many glider pilots just aren't willing
(or able) to do that.

Perhaps that is what leads to "checklists" that read like a page out
of a training manual - and perhaps they are necessary for many
pilots. *But judging by our accident record, that approach may not be
the best...

Kirk
66

No offense intended, and none taken.

Andy's spot on regarding challenge and response checklists. We get so
used to making the response (whether to another crew member or to
ourselves) that, sometimes, the response is the only action taken. "I
didn't hear the tower's warning about the landing gear because there
was this loud horn blaring in my headset."

Once, as a flight engineer, I had a first officer center the gear
handle on a 727 before the gear doors had time to close. Not too much
of a problem except we were on a two-engine recovery flight (CLE-DFW)
and there was a blizzard blowing outside. Checklist said something
like Gear lever - Up and Off. He waved me to shut up as I warned
about the hanging door (again, only two engines turning) so I
unstrapped, reached over him, raised the gear handle until the doors
closed, and then centered it. The captain nodded in approval.

Remember the first officer worrying that something was wrong and the
captain saying it was OK (Air Florida, DCA)? Checklists are no
substitute for airmanship.

OK, I'm gonna go tow some gliders now...