More plane ownership?

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
...I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
drive to KBFM: 15 min.
get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.
start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
drive to customer's site: 10 min.
drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
drive home: 15 min.

Total: 5.17 hours.
So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:

I take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation.

Yeah, 100 miles is about the break-even point. A few months back, I posted about
picking my mother up at Cape Map in the Maule. That's about 100nm. Had I driven
down, it would've been about two hours down and two back. As it was, it was 45
minutes to the airport and about 15 to get untied and in the air. The air time
was about two hours, and we had about an hour to tie her down and drive home.

About the same either way, but I still think the Maule beats the Parkway.

There's another plus. Mama hates headsets, so she was only able to talk to me for
the 45 minute drive home. That alone is worth the cost of the avgas. :-)

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

shoot, looking up a plane ticket on the internet takes me longer to do then my flight
planning.
My flight planning consists of basically punching it into duats, printing it out, going
to my plane, punching it into my GPS and away I go.

when I fly to los angeles, it takes about 4-5 hours depending on traffic, I can fly to LA
in 1:15 . No headaches because of traffic. Like today, a bad accident on i-15 near
barstow, 4 dead, highway closed untill at least 10pm tonight (what the news said).


You have to include your flight planning time, as well as door-to-door
time when comparing flying somewhere to driving there, for example. I
take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation. But I
still do it because I love to fly.

I figure that will change when I start flying longer distances.

On 5-Feb-2004, "Henry Bibb" wrote:

Today
if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.


I think that this statement needs to be put in some perspective. For one
thing, when it comes to flying your own airplane you have to consider both
total and incremental costs. I figure the total hourly cost for our Arrow,
given its average annual usage, at around $100. But incremental cost, that
is the cost of flying an additional hour, all else being equal, is only
about $35.00 -- really, it's only the cost of fuel and pro-rated hourly
engine/prop overhaul, plus maybe a buck or two to cover other
usage-sensitive maintenance.

Last November my wife and I needed to travel from our home near Seattle to
the Los Angeles area. Because it was relatively short notice the best
airfare we could get was around $700 round trip for the two of us. We took
the Arrow instead, and accumulated a touch over 12 hours. In terms of total
hourly cost (about $1200) the airlines would have been a lot less expensive.
However, in terms of incremental cost we saved quite a bit of money by
taking the Arrow. And, it there had been three of us traveling the savings
would have been much greater.

--
-Elliott Drucker

"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...

Don't have the word "sucker" across the top of the head.

Here's a non-pilot checking in and throwing in my $.02.

I bought my 22' cuddy cabin for $750 then sold the blown engine for $300
(scrap/parts) and bought a used trailer - $400

So now I'm into it for $850

Making a long story short, I rebuilt the entire structural system of the
boat myself (try that with the FAA) with the pay as you go program in
the back yard.

Bought a used engine and new hydraulic steering for $2500 (2 year loan @
$140/mo)

Forty hours into service, engine develops a sound. (not good) After some
research and quiet $20 bills to professional mechanics it is determined
that pistons are stretched. (common problem)

I had the bores resized .010 over and did the rest of the overhaul
myself with non-factory FORGED pistons. (try that with the FAA) Parts
cost $850

So now I have boat that is tougher than new (Not prettier) and a fresh
engine with better than new (OEM) parts.

The loan is now paid off.

Total time from initial offer to paid off loan... less than 4 years.
Plus I got the use the boat in various stages of completion (try that
with the FAA)

Government involvement- 1 trip for title transfer
and yearly registration for hull & trailer $50

So--- getting back to your questions..... Here is why I am not flying
(and I DO want to)(badly)

Owning-- from what I am seeing, 50 grand might get you into something
ready to go without impending doom looming overhead. Now I NEED
insurance as a loan requirement. (for 120 months)
For comparison, my boat's full coverage insurance is $35/mo

Renting-- not even in the works. I want to use the plane as a form of
transportation, not for a quick look around. Try leaving a rental in the
Bahamas for three days (idle) and see what happens to the vacation
budget. Flight time to and from would be less than 2 hours.
Most of the uses I have for a plane involve not operating it for a few
days at a time.

Storage-- While not nearly as nice as the back yard, tie-downs seem to
be reasonable, but it's still spending $$ for no enjoyment for as long
as I own it.

Lack of use-- not an issue.. weekends off and more when I plan for it.
Long weekends and vacations USUALLY involve a boat. About 1 out of three
weekends involve boating.

Insurance- Problem #1: If I bought a plane, it would have to be
financed. Financed = required insurance. For the duration of the loan.
Problem #2: Damn near every mishap with a plane renders it unflyable to
the FAA until repaired. Repairs are so expensive that one can't afford
NOT to be insured. Catch 22

Maintenance-- I WANT to become thoroughly knowledgeable of every aspect
of a piece of equipment I trust my life with (boats included). I take
the time to learn how to do EVERYTHING myself- properly.
From an outsiders viewpoint, it seems like the FAA is taking that away
from me; or forcing me PAY someone else to inspect MY work when it is MY
ass on the line. For the inspector, it is a job on the line.
As an automotive mechanic of 8 years, I can count, on one hand, the
number of engine failures that were not the result of poor basic
maintenance (or overcomplicated engine control systems) The engines that
are coming through the dealer these days are good for at least 200,000
miles with nothing more than oil changes and basic tune-up components.
Why are aircraft engine not capable of the same without frequent
inspections?
Granted, cars are DOR (dead on road) more often, but the modern car has
more computing responsibilities than the Apollo that went to the moon.
(really) Strip off all that technology and replace it with some robust
stuff that wasn't made by the lowest bidder and you have an engine that
can go and go and go and go for years on end.

Fear of flying-- I think you may be on to something there. Talk about
being responsible for your own actions and abilities.

And yes... at my current blue collar job, I would not feel good about an
airplane I could afford.

Now some other observations from an outsider.....
When poking around the local GA airport there is a feeling of
intimidation I get that makes me want to high tail it out of there
before I get arrested and cavity searched.

Boating is easy to get into.. just sign here.

Anything that has to do with aviation is centered around the airport
(remember the scary factor, above) and the airport is usually out of
"normal" town. For boating, there is several places scattered through
town and stretching along the coast to lure you in. (Vero Beach, FL)

Chicks dig a new boat more than a 40 year old plane that needs paint.
(can you paint one without the FAA holding your hand?)

Now for a more abstract view.... enclosed cockpits are the demise of
aviation (GA). The problem is, when I spend a weekend or even a day out
on the water, I almost always show up for work on Monday with a sunburn.
Sunburnt people are always questioned about "what did you do this
weekend?" and I am more than happy to fill them in on the weekend's
adventures and sights. Aviation just doesn't get enough "exposure"

Ok ... I'll quit rambling now.
Just gonna sit here and fly around on the X-plane simulator for a
while.......

JD in Vero Beach


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JD if you can rebuild a boat, you can build a plane. If you want an open
cockpit, so much the better.

You can't do it for under a thousand, or at least I wouldn't. You can do it
pretty cheaply though. The more time you put in, the less it costs.




"J D Bulter" Caveman941 at AOL.com wrote in message
...
Here's a non-pilot checking in and throwing in my $.02.

I bought my 22' cuddy cabin for $750 then sold the blown engine for $300
(scrap/parts) and bought a used trailer - $400

So now I'm into it for $850

Making a long story short, I rebuilt the entire structural system of the
boat myself (try that with the FAA) with the pay as you go program in
the back yard.

Bought a used engine and new hydraulic steering for $2500 (2 year loan @
$140/mo)

Forty hours into service, engine develops a sound. (not good) After some
research and quiet $20 bills to professional mechanics it is determined
that pistons are stretched. (common problem)

I had the bores resized .010 over and did the rest of the overhaul
myself with non-factory FORGED pistons. (try that with the FAA) Parts
cost $850

So now I have boat that is tougher than new (Not prettier) and a fresh
engine with better than new (OEM) parts.

The loan is now paid off.

Total time from initial offer to paid off loan... less than 4 years.
Plus I got the use the boat in various stages of completion (try that
with the FAA)

Government involvement- 1 trip for title transfer
and yearly registration for hull & trailer $50

So--- getting back to your questions..... Here is why I am not flying
(and I DO want to)(badly)

Owning-- from what I am seeing, 50 grand might get you into something
ready to go without impending doom looming overhead. Now I NEED
insurance as a loan requirement. (for 120 months)
For comparison, my boat's full coverage insurance is $35/mo

Renting-- not even in the works. I want to use the plane as a form of
transportation, not for a quick look around. Try leaving a rental in the
Bahamas for three days (idle) and see what happens to the vacation
budget. Flight time to and from would be less than 2 hours.
Most of the uses I have for a plane involve not operating it for a few
days at a time.

Storage-- While not nearly as nice as the back yard, tie-downs seem to
be reasonable, but it's still spending $$ for no enjoyment for as long
as I own it.

Lack of use-- not an issue.. weekends off and more when I plan for it.
Long weekends and vacations USUALLY involve a boat. About 1 out of three
weekends involve boating.

Insurance- Problem #1: If I bought a plane, it would have to be
financed. Financed = required insurance. For the duration of the loan.
Problem #2: Damn near every mishap with a plane renders it unflyable to
the FAA until repaired. Repairs are so expensive that one can't afford
NOT to be insured. Catch 22

Maintenance-- I WANT to become thoroughly knowledgeable of every aspect
of a piece of equipment I trust my life with (boats included). I take
the time to learn how to do EVERYTHING myself- properly.
From an outsiders viewpoint, it seems like the FAA is taking that away
from me; or forcing me PAY someone else to inspect MY work when it is MY
ass on the line. For the inspector, it is a job on the line.
As an automotive mechanic of 8 years, I can count, on one hand, the
number of engine failures that were not the result of poor basic
maintenance (or overcomplicated engine control systems) The engines that
are coming through the dealer these days are good for at least 200,000
miles with nothing more than oil changes and basic tune-up components.
Why are aircraft engine not capable of the same without frequent
inspections?
Granted, cars are DOR (dead on road) more often, but the modern car has
more computing responsibilities than the Apollo that went to the moon.
(really) Strip off all that technology and replace it with some robust
stuff that wasn't made by the lowest bidder and you have an engine that
can go and go and go and go for years on end.

Fear of flying-- I think you may be on to something there. Talk about
being responsible for your own actions and abilities.

And yes... at my current blue collar job, I would not feel good about an
airplane I could afford.

Now some other observations from an outsider.....
When poking around the local GA airport there is a feeling of
intimidation I get that makes me want to high tail it out of there
before I get arrested and cavity searched.

Boating is easy to get into.. just sign here.

Anything that has to do with aviation is centered around the airport
(remember the scary factor, above) and the airport is usually out of
"normal" town. For boating, there is several places scattered through
town and stretching along the coast to lure you in. (Vero Beach, FL)

Chicks dig a new boat more than a 40 year old plane that needs paint.
(can you paint one without the FAA holding your hand?)

Now for a more abstract view.... enclosed cockpits are the demise of
aviation (GA). The problem is, when I spend a weekend or even a day out
on the water, I almost always show up for work on Monday with a sunburn.
Sunburnt people are always questioned about "what did you do this
weekend?" and I am more than happy to fill them in on the weekend's
adventures and sights. Aviation just doesn't get enough "exposure"

Ok ... I'll quit rambling now.
Just gonna sit here and fly around on the X-plane simulator for a
while.......

JD in Vero Beach


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