Talk me out of this...

Yeah, the winds worked against me both ways. A bit annoying. I am
totally going to write a complaint letter to the NWS.

So was this one of your XCs? Dual?


Chris Hoffmann wrote:

You ain't kidding about the winds. They were from 250 when I was planning at
around 3 o'clock - by 3:30 they'd spun round to 200. Statrted double
checking my planning when it was obvious we were heading northwest instead
of northeast. 138 kts out - 78 kts back. Ouch.

This was sort of a "refresher" - I did both duals back in October, so we're
just catching up a bit before I take the phase check. Planned out a flight
to Manitowoc, but we didn't go much past West Bend. With the low ceilings
and winds, I was just fine with that.
Heh, SVFR practice? Not quite...


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
link.net...
Yeah, the winds worked against me both ways. A bit annoying. I am
totally going to write a complaint letter to the NWS.

So was this one of your XCs? Dual?


Chris Hoffmann wrote:

You ain't kidding about the winds. They were from 250 when I was
planning at
around 3 o'clock - by 3:30 they'd spun round to 200. Statrted double
checking my planning when it was obvious we were heading northwest
instead
of northeast. 138 kts out - 78 kts back. Ouch.

You ain't kidding about the winds. They were from 250 when I was planning
at
around 3 o'clock - by 3:30 they'd spun round to 200. Statrted double
checking my planning when it was obvious we were heading northwest instead
of northeast. 138 kts out - 78 kts back. Ouch.

We flew back from WI yesterday. Winds aloft 230 at 55.

Ground speed on the GPS: 88 knots.

Our plane normally does 140 knots.

It was a loooong flight... :-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article k.net,
Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050.

You've got to figure the overhaul cost in. It's half again the cost of
the plane, at least! Call around, get estimates. The cheaper the airframe
the higher the relative value of the avionics and the engine, so get it
right.

But more importantly: Step one (as several have alluded to) is to figure
out what your mission is. THEN pick a plane that fits your mission. The
152 has a pretty limited mission.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

You're kidding, right? Okay, instead of the normal candy coated
responses, here's your slap on the back of the head.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 02:41:04 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

That' their job. They need to unload a tired old piece of junk that's
already been amortized by their accountant long ago!

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

That's because someone else may want to buy with their head!

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.

10K? Do you want a junk yard engine or do you want an engine you'll
be comfortable on takeoff with? $10K MAY get you a field overhaul if
everything else is in good shape. If the engine is original, it has
8000 hours on it. Don't let anyone bull**** you on this. How are the
cylinders? How is the crank and cam? What about the induction system
and mags? Starter and alternator? Don't fall for that 10K rebuild
crap. It's for cheapskates that don't give a rat's ass about their
own safety.

- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Strike 2 and strike 3. Sounds like you're aware of what you're
getting into.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.

To a certain point. The plane is being used as a trainer and the
engine is being abused as part of normal training. And the engine is
only a third of the airplane. What about all the rest of the
twisting, yanking, pulling, banging and slamming on the airframe
itself?

- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

They could very well be, but I'll bet you don't get into their
finances and don't see the real picture. Nobody except a private
owner will take care of a plane as well as a private owner. Besides,
what's a replacement airplane going to cost them?

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

What you never see are the pop ups that occur when owning. All those
items that you'll authorized to be fixed when you're the main guy.
And, have you figured who you're going to use as a mechanic? As long
as you keep the present one on, you'll never be his number one
concern. If you can't do the work yourself, a simple tire change will
cost you over $400. An oil change can easily cost $250. Need a prop?
Fork over another $2K!

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

Paul, unless you have $35K to **** away, I'd start doing some
research. First and foremost is your mission. If it's Saturday
burgers for the next bunch of years, the 152 is okay. If it's flying
over to grandma's, you're SOL. What you need to do is start looking
at the big picture which includes, resale (you'll want to upgrade in
about a year, guaranteed!), replacement parts availability, AD's,
SB's, insurance costs, hangar, annual costs, equipment, accessories,
etc. As others have stated, when you get the engine taken care of,
you'll have an 8000 hour $35,000 152, and you haven't even mentioned
avionics which could cost you $5000 in a blink of an eye!

My thoughts:
1. Too many hours for any plane. When you're done with it, you'll
need to part it out to recoup any of your investment
2. A trainer all its life is a very, very bad thing.
3. Avionics?
4. You need to get this for $10K or have them supply an overhauled
engine for the $19K to even consider the deal.
5. Run, don't walk from this one.
6. Trade A Plane. See what the world is really like in this
"recovering" economy. $35K buys a whole lot of airplane, including
good 172's if you're a high wing guy. If you're a low winger, the
Cherokees may be more bang for your buck, and more in your price
desires. If you can't come up with the cash, finance. You'll be
doing it anyway, but on your credit card after the bills start coming
in.
7. If you're ready to buy, you'll walk away from dozens before you
find the one you want.
8. Unless you fly regularly (200 hours a year) you'll never
cost-justify the purchase vs. renting, so take that out of the
equation.

You're kidding, right? Okay, instead of the normal candy coated
responses, here's your slap on the back of the head.

Where the hell were you when I was thinking about sticking that fork in
the toaster?

That' their job. They need to unload a tired old piece of junk that's
already been amortized by their accountant long ago!

You're assuming a bit there.

10K? Do you want a junk yard engine or do you want an engine you'll
be comfortable on takeoff with? $10K MAY get you a field overhaul if

Junkyard.. wait, no. The second one.

everything else is in good shape. If the engine is original, it has
8000 hours on it. Don't let anyone bull**** you on this. How are the
cylinders? How is the crank and cam? What about the induction system
and mags? Starter and alternator? Don't fall for that 10K rebuild
crap. It's for cheapskates that don't give a rat's ass about their
own safety.

I don't think the engine is the original. I really doubt it. I do know
that they recently replaced the 235 on another 152 with a brand new
(remanufactured) Lycoming.

To a certain point. The plane is being used as a trainer and the
engine is being abused as part of normal training. And the engine is
only a third of the airplane. What about all the rest of the
twisting, yanking, pulling, banging and slamming on the airframe
itself?

Yeah, I worry about that. I worry about the landing gear especially.

They could very well be, but I'll bet you don't get into their
finances and don't see the real picture. Nobody except a private
owner will take care of a plane as well as a private owner. Besides,

Makes sense.

What you never see are the pop ups that occur when owning. All those
items that you'll authorized to be fixed when you're the main guy.
And, have you figured who you're going to use as a mechanic? As long
as you keep the present one on, you'll never be his number one
concern. If you can't do the work yourself, a simple tire change will
cost you over $400. An oil change can easily cost $250. Need a prop?
Fork over another $2K!

$250 for an oil change?! Now, that's something I can legally do myself-
why on earth would I pay that for it.

Paul, unless you have $35K to **** away, I'd start doing some
research. First and foremost is your mission. If it's Saturday
burgers for the next bunch of years, the 152 is okay. If it's flying

It pretty much is.

over to grandma's, you're SOL. What you need to do is start looking
at the big picture which includes, resale (you'll want to upgrade in
about a year, guaranteed!), replacement parts availability, AD's,
SB's, insurance costs, hangar, annual costs, equipment, accessories,
etc. As others have stated, when you get the engine taken care of,
you'll have an 8000 hour $35,000 152, and you haven't even mentioned
avionics which could cost you $5000 in a blink of an eye!

My thoughts:
1. Too many hours for any plane. When you're done with it, you'll
need to part it out to recoup any of your investment
2. A trainer all its life is a very, very bad thing.
3. Avionics?
4. You need to get this for $10K or have them supply an overhauled
engine for the $19K to even consider the deal.
5. Run, don't walk from this one.
6. Trade A Plane. See what the world is really like in this
"recovering" economy. $35K buys a whole lot of airplane, including
good 172's if you're a high wing guy. If you're a low winger, the
Cherokees may be more bang for your buck, and more in your price
desires. If you can't come up with the cash, finance. You'll be
doing it anyway, but on your credit card after the bills start coming
in.
7. If you're ready to buy, you'll walk away from dozens before you
find the one you want.
8. Unless you fly regularly (200 hours a year) you'll never
cost-justify the purchase vs. renting, so take that out of the
equation.

Your advice is being considered, sir. As to your last point- I'm a bit
curious about that as I normally see a lower number brandied about as
the break-even.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
Yeah, I worry about that. I worry about the landing gear especially.

I'm reasonably sure Cessna designed the landing gear on the 152 to be
strong enough to support a 747.

There are quite a few NTSBs about collapsed nosegears. But I guess
you're talking mainly about the mains. (No pun intended.. ugh.)

Roy Smith wrote:

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Yeah, I worry about that. I worry about the landing gear especially.


I'm reasonably sure Cessna designed the landing gear on the 152 to be
strong enough to support a 747.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I don't think the engine is the original. I really doubt it.

Well, then - check the engine logbook. It's separate from the aircraft log.
Many flight schools that have several of the same type of plane will buy a
spare engine and swap engines out at TBO to minimize downtime. The engine in
there is unlikely to be the original, but it still may be pretty high time
and have been rebuilt several times already.

Yeah, I worry about that. I worry about the landing gear especially.

Next time you're out there, take a look under the plane. If the big rivets
where the main gear legs attach have black outlines, leave it. This is known
as "weeping" and usually indicates that things are flexing a bit too much in
that area. Even if it passes this exam, I would seriously consider following
Jim Weir's advice.

Your advice is being considered, sir. As to your last point- I'm a bit
curious about that as I normally see a lower number brandied about as
the break-even.

Break-even is about 100 hours a year for the typical costs. If you factor in the
cost of money, as some people advise, and if you hangar the aircraft, it tends to
be closer to 200 hours. More in areas with high hangar rents.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:17:20 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

8. Unless you fly regularly (200 hours a year) you'll never
cost-justify the purchase vs. renting, so take that out of the
equation.

Your advice is being considered, sir. As to your last point- I'm a bit
curious about that as I normally see a lower number brandied about as
the break-even.

All those hidden pop-up things that can't be put down on paper. And
don't think for one minute you'll be satisfied once you own it.
You'll want to make it the best damn airplane in the GA fleet!

And don't stick a fork in the toaster.