Accelerated Instrument Rating

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message news:c9hyc.10
Question: Who would YOU rather fly with?

1) A 10 days wonder?
2) A 30 day wonder
3) A 90 day wonder? (No, not OCS)
4) A six month "malingerer"?

Well, that depends on too many factors. Silly question with no good answer.

Like I mentioned before, a cram session prepares you to take a test; it
doesn't teach (long term) competence, with the possible exception of those
who are doing it as a career at a school like FlightSafety.

That's simply bullsquat. By all accounts, the IFR cram program "graduates"
equal the skills of snail programs just after and long after the training.

You're welcome to your opinion, of course, but it has absolutely no basis in
reality. The reality is that accellerated programs are "just as good" for
those who can handle it.


--
Jim Fisher

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote:
Ok. So, let's say I want to get the rating and want decent quality
instruction. What's the best way?

There are a plenty of independent CFII with their own planes who charge a
lot less than FBO's, I don't know any off top of my head, but I'm sure you
could either google them up, or just ask locals.

I am *not* going to the local FBO where the 172 is $135 and hour and the

I actually did my training at one such FBO that charged about 15% higher for
their rentals and instruction time than the guy next door. But the training
I've got (except that KMSV landing which was totally, totally my own macho
thingie) in MY opinion (again someone will find an excuse to drag me through
the litigation) I received the best training money could possibly buy from
the best and most demanding instructors I ever known. Those who flown with
Warren Loveless and Stanley Sanders at Mac Dan ( http://www.macdan.com )
know that I've got every reason to claim that.

If you want to save money, find a local independent CFII, if you want to to
fly down the ILS at CAT III minimums in a C-172 in any weather day or night,
these are they guys to look up.


HECTOP
PP-ASEL-IA
http://www.maxho.com
maxho_at_maxho.com

Find a flying club you like and join it. Find (maybe through the club) a CFII
you like, and take lessons from him.

Have a plan - carve out the time in your schedule for three two-hour flights a
week. (a three hour block of time, for two hours of flying). Figure some of
these will end up cancelled for weather, or other reasons, that leaves you with
two nice blocks per week. In instrument training (especially when practicing
approaches) you need a nice chunck of time, otherwise you'll spend a lot of
time coming and going.

Keep at it, and adjust based on your progress. That's what I would do.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:51:53 GMT, "Peter Gottlieb"
wrote:

Ok. So, let's say I want to get the rating and want decent quality
instruction. What's the best way?

In my case, I've been getting there (slowly) by doing it a little here, a
little there. I want to go someplace and just get it done with.

I am *not* going to the local FBO where the 172 is $135 and hour and the
CFII is $45 (both plus tax, naturally) and they have a reputation for
milking their students.

What are my best options?


I have completed 190 complete instrument ratings in 9 days or less.
None of my students have gotten into trouble or hurt themselves. Let
me know via email if I can be of help..

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
.. .
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message news:c9hyc.10
Question: Who would YOU rather fly with?

1) A 10 days wonder?
2) A 30 day wonder
3) A 90 day wonder? (No, not OCS)
4) A six month "malingerer"?

Well, that depends on too many factors. Silly question with no good
answer.

Like I mentioned before, a cram session prepares you to take a test; it
doesn't teach (long term) competence, with the possible exception of
those
who are doing it as a career at a school like FlightSafety.

That's simply bullsquat. By all accounts, the IFR cram program
"graduates"
equal the skills of snail programs just after and long after the training.

Cite?

HECTOP wrote:

I actually did my training at one such FBO that charged about 15% higher
for their rentals and instruction time than the guy next door. But the
training I've got (except that KMSV landing which was totally, totally my
own macho thingie) in MY opinion (again someone will find an excuse to
drag me through the litigation) I received the best training money could
possibly buy from the best and most demanding instructors I ever known.
Those who flown with Warren Loveless and Stanley Sanders at Mac Dan (
http://www.macdan.com ) know that I've got every reason to claim that.

Knowing the manager at Mac Dan, I'd bet that one could work out a "package
deal". That might provide a middle ground between "one or twice a week"
and those accelerated programs.

And if the manager wasn't immediately willing, I'd have a chat with a
leaseback-owner (is that the proper expression?).

I expect that this sort of deal would be available elsewhere too.

- Andrew

"Jim Fisher" wrote:
I'll be damned.

This question has been posted quite frequently over
the years. All the nay-sayers say it just can't be as
good as your standard training.

I did it the traditional way, which was a 13-mo. slog with a very
experienced Part 135 pilot as an instructor. After I passed the 'ride
(including a re-test on the holding part) I found I still had a thousand
things to learn about the practical use of the rating.

FWIW, if I had it to do over again I'd do the PIC thing.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

After I passed the 'ride
(including a re-test on the holding part) I found I still had a thousand
things to learn about the practical use of the rating.

While I was working on the rating (in the usual way), I was also doing my
own "regular" flying. This would occasionally generate questions that I'd
bring to my CFII that he'd turn into lessons.

I also flew in all four seasons during my IFR training. I'm not sure, but
I'd assume that the "actual" hours accumulated were all across the year.

We'd plenty of times where the CFII and I were studying the weather, both
current and predicted. This was not just to make the go/no-go decision,
but also to pick where the weather would be doing what when. Our goal was
to find the worse weather (up to a point), which is not the norm, but this
was still a practical study of weather over time.

Then we'd fly in it (or not {8^).

All of these would be necessarily diluted if my time with the CFII had
included none of my own normal flying and just a few days of weather.

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote:
I also flew in all four seasons during my IFR training. I'm not sure, but

me and Stanley took off for KABE on 9/15/01, and were probably the first
Part 61 aircraft in the air in the whole country and almost got in trouble
for that. I think he told you the story

HECTOP
PP-ASEL-IA
http://www.maxho.com
maxho_at_maxho.com

"HECTOP" wrote
There are a plenty of independent CFII with their own planes who charge a
lot less than FBO's

There are very few independent CFII's with their own planes available
for instruction, and the few that exist generally charge more, not
less. Owning a single plane and renting it out for instruction is not
financially viable in most cases. Most independent CFII's that I know
only instruct owners in their own airplanes.

I actually did my training at one such FBO that charged about 15% higher for
their rentals and instruction time than the guy next door. But the training
I've got (except that KMSV landing which was totally, totally my own macho
thingie) in MY opinion (again someone will find an excuse to drag me through
the litigation) I received the best training money could possibly buy from
the best and most demanding instructors I ever known.

OK. Just a couple of questions:

Did that training include circling at minimums - for real, not from a
hooded approach? Did it include a XC flight under IFR in IMC? Did it
include getting a popup for real - meaning in conditions where, due to
low ceilings/vis, you actually NEEDED it? Were you prepared to
anticipate and respond to the "climb VFR to XXXX feet" instruction,
and do you know what the other option is? Did that training prepare
you to depart IFR from an airport without an instrument approach? Did
it prepare you to identify and reject improper departure instructions
that can put you into obstructions? Can you tell me how it can be
possible to have a current book of plates, get a full briefing before
takeoff, including NOTAM's, and still discover that the approach you
planned to use is unavailable and has been for months? For extra
credit, at what point in your flight would you discover this? Under
what circumstances is it possible to fly an approach well within PTS
tolerances, using equipment that is also well within defined
operational tolerances, and still hit an obstruction?

If your training actually covered all these items, you may well have
found a rarity - an FBO with experienced CFII's who actually fly the
system themselves on a regular basis and thus can teach you to do it.
If some of these things weren't covered, and you had to learna about
them on your own later, well, don't feel like the lone ranger. Most
CFII's you find at most FBO's have minimal experience actually flying
IFR. Most independents are people who do it themselves on a regular
basis and instruct others because they enjoy it.

If you want to save money, find a local independent CFII, if you want to to
fly down the ILS at CAT III minimums in a C-172 in any weather day or night,
these are they guys to look up.

Actually, you're most likely not going to save money with an
independent CFII. His plane isn't going to be cheaper, and I would be
surprised if his hourly rate was lower. But you will learn how not to
put yourself in a position where you have to fly to Cat III (which
can't be done consistently in a C-172, or any other plane without
autoland), and you will learn to fly to Cat II comfortably (since that
CAN be done consistently with a C-172 in certain cases - what are
they?). Thing is, a Cat II ILS, hand flown, is not half as
challenging as a circling-only NDB (or even VOR) in 1000-2, never mind
minimums.

As for landing on an unlit runway - if you think that's an IFR skill,
I have news for you. We've got a local pilot who used to routinely
land at an unlit rough grass strip at night, in a taildragger no less,
and the only instrument training he ever got was the required three
hours for his private.

Michael