Pre-buy Inspection

"if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them.

Jon Kraus

Dream on. You are not very mechanically inclined, are you?
--
Jim in NC

Nope. Don't take my comment out of context, read the whole passage.

--
Jim Carter
"Nomen Nescio" ] wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: "Jim Carter"

I can't understand why some people think the object is to get the lowest
price

You're joking, right?



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBQTLJ2JMoscYxZNI5AQGBhgP+Nb+a59iQbHisN6dPN3 TaXSu3HY9N/k9N
Wef2n6f5SKRB2LxW8dzLWlm8eQT+i4zv9BGdzt9zhDzZqHkYST veBTCug2bkm2RU
pE2dPnNCgECJsv0Us0PqgjAUf0lYY1z8wA1X8De+buyYxApjAD T5NyZQa8ihxUS6
imwXGCBcCdE=
=4xer
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)

Morgans wrote:
"if they told me they can do

it in 8 hours I believe them.


Jon Kraus


Dream on. You are not very mechanically inclined, are you?

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)

Hmm, a bit too sensitive?

Plonk
--
Jim in NC

The oil-in-the-cylinder thing is for the "automotive" type compression
test. There is another way to tell with the "leak down" type test
given to aircraft. A mechanic should be able to tell you if its
valves or rings. They can "hear" it leak with the leakdown test. What
frequently goes on these Lycomings is the camshaft, which will be
valve related on the compression, and that is a major overhaul (tear
the engine apart). If you pull a cylinder, have the mic the cam.

Engine life is always a bit of a gamble. Does it do book speeds and
climb at book rates? Performance is also a good measure, but HARD to
measure accurately.
Is fuel consumption normal for the speeds being flown? That is
probably the easiest way to tell. Use a GPS for you speeds and
compensate for the wind and altitude to get IAS, as that is most
accurate. Airspeed indicators are not always accurate.

If you buy an Mooney, or any airplane like it, you need to be able to
spring for an engine rebuild at any random moment in time. But these
engines can run a long time without needing a rebuild. It partly
depends on you, and how safe you feel with a questionable situation.

I have a similar Lycoming 0360 in my Aviat Husky, and its 2200 on the
tach. Still going strong. No compression problems or oil usage. But it
is 2200 SNEW and has immaculate care.

Jon Kraus wrote in message .. .
Doug - Thanks for your remarks. The engine has 420 hours SMOH which
included a new camshaft, new bearings ect. I'm wondering if the main
issue (with the low compression) is that the 420 hours has been over 6
years (and the last year it hardly flew at all). IMHO the plane has not
been flown enough. Like I said I'm an no expert but wouldn't you think
that 70 hours a year is a little light on usage? Could this be the
cause of the low compression on the cylinder? Maybe and mabe not. I have
a mechanical background but it has been years since I turned a wrench
but if I remember about compression checks the procedure was to take a
reading and if it was low then you squirt oil into the low cylinder (wet
compression check)and if the reading came up then the rings were either
worn or sticking. This is because the oil would temporarily seal the
rings but do nothing to seal up the valves. If the reading stayed the
same then you would suspect a valve problem. Please don't flame me too
bad on this because it has ben a while since I've done any engine work.
Although I suspect I'll be doing some owner assisted things with
whatever plane I end up. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser


Doug wrote:

What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.

You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
more hours, doing nothing.

If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Bob Noel wrote in message ...
In article , Jon Kraus
wrote:

I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

something to consider: The seller might not like the shop because
of a bad experience. I know one A&P that I won't let touch my
airplane ever again (but he's not in the IL area).

Friend of mine just sold his 172. Before the buyer took it to pre-buy,
he (my friend) had his preferred mechanic do a compression check. One
cylinder was OK (mid 60s) rest in the low 70s. The prospective buyer
takes it to his guy, report comes back, one cylinder shot (58), two
questionable (61-63) and one in the high 60s. None of the results
matched up with the previous comp check. Buyer sez, "I want $2500 off
because I'm going to have to replace three jugs instead of one like
you said." My friend says, OK, how's about we take the plane together,
tomorrow, to a third shop on the same field as your guy and get it
checked there. Buyer says OK, they fly over there, and mechanic #3
does the check with the buyer over his shoulder. Everything within
1psi of the check my friend's mechanic did. Buyer got half his money
back from his (former) mechanic and bought the plane.

If it's a reputable, well-known place, I'd ask the guy for an
explanation of why he won't let you take it there. If the deal looks
good otherwise it might be worth trying to salvage.

-cwk.

There really is no such thing as "a standard pre-buy". A pre buy can
consist of anything you authorize the mechanic to do. First do a
lookup on who that N number is registered to. Are you really dealing
with the owner? What I would then suggest is you check the plane out
as completely as YOU can. Upholstry, paint, hail damage, how if flies,
do the radios, lights, gyros etc work. Make a written list. Get the
logs. See if they have all the annauls (did they skip any).
Transponder, pitot check. Take the logs to a mechanic. Have him check
the gear and the engine and have HIM look at the logs and AD's. Is
there any damage history? How is the repair?

An O360 Mooney is going to run dollarwise:
FIXED COSTS
$?? Hangar or tie down ($500 to $3000)
$1000-2000 insurance depending on pilot, Call Avemco and get a quote
$1500 annual (just the annual part, not the repairs)

HOURLY COSTS
$25 fuel and oil
$10 maintenance (this one is the bigest unknown)
$10 engine reserve


Jon Kraus wrote in message .. .
Jim,
ROFLMFAO.. You don't even know me so your comment about my attitude is
laughable. As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do. Maybe you are
ripping people off (25 + hours is ridiculous) and that is why you aren't
getting any pre-buy business. But then again I don't know you either so
who's to say right? :-)

I would think that a shop that deals with a specific aircraft day in and
day out would be able to point to the "problem" (expensive) areas of the
aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. At least that is what they tell
me. I think Byerly is a reputable firm and if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them. It is of course your prerogative to
disagree. Huggs and Kisses

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Jim Weir wrote:
That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

I respectfully disagree. A prebuy inspection is what **I** am comfortable with.
And, as I said, I don't do them, because my comfort level is way to hell and
gone off the top end. I want that person buying that airplane to know every
little wear pattern on the airplane, in stark contrast to my annuals which
certify that no part is beyond wear or airworthiness limits.

I stick to my guns. An annual is 2 hours (more or less) of pure inspection. A
prebuy to my standards is 25 hours or so; that's my 12:1 ratio I talked about.
That's why I don't do them for anybody but myself.

Jim


(Doug)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-There really is no such thing as "a standard pre-buy". A pre buy can
-consist of anything you authorize the mechanic to do.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Great advise... As in any business there are those that would take
advantage of others. That is not how I live my life but hey I'm the one
that has to live with "the guy in the mirror". The way that this
situation went down was that the seller didn't give an explaination as
to why he didn't want the pre-buy done at Byerly. As a side note the
sellers good friend was going to go with us to the pre-buy to overse
things.

To my partner and I it just is not worth the hassle of trying to figure
out the reason(s) for the sellers decision. I accept that. We have
decided to get our deposit back and keep on looking. There are many
planes out there and frankly it would have been an odd situation to buy
the first on we looked at. I apprecate everyones posts. Thanks !!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

C Kingsbury wrote:
Bob Noel wrote in message ...

In article , Jon Kraus
wrote:


I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

something to consider: The seller might not like the shop because
of a bad experience. I know one A&P that I won't let touch my
airplane ever again (but he's not in the IL area).


Friend of mine just sold his 172. Before the buyer took it to pre-buy,
he (my friend) had his preferred mechanic do a compression check. One
cylinder was OK (mid 60s) rest in the low 70s. The prospective buyer
takes it to his guy, report comes back, one cylinder shot (58), two
questionable (61-63) and one in the high 60s. None of the results
matched up with the previous comp check. Buyer sez, "I want $2500 off
because I'm going to have to replace three jugs instead of one like
you said." My friend says, OK, how's about we take the plane together,
tomorrow, to a third shop on the same field as your guy and get it
checked there. Buyer says OK, they fly over there, and mechanic #3
does the check with the buyer over his shoulder. Everything within
1psi of the check my friend's mechanic did. Buyer got half his money
back from his (former) mechanic and bought the plane.

If it's a reputable, well-known place, I'd ask the guy for an
explanation of why he won't let you take it there. If the deal looks
good otherwise it might be worth trying to salvage.

-cwk.

Sensitive enough to stick up for myself yes...

Morgans wrote:

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)


Hmm, a bit too sensitive?

Plonk