Question from a new flight student (whopping 7 hours!)

zatatime wrote:



(This may be wrong but,)I believe when a TPA is not explicitly stated
in the AF/D the expected TPA is 800' AGL.

TPA is always a suggestion. Never a reg.

zatatime wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:16:20 -0600, Newps
wrote:


Yeah right. I'm at 1000 AGL, meanwhile there's idiots flying over the
airport at pattern altitude then leaving so they can get on their
precious 45 degree entry. Sorry your argumaent doesn't hold water.



Why would you leave the pattern to perform a 45 entry?

You're kidding right? You would not believe what some people go thru to
go out and get back on that 45.

zatatime wrote:


As I see it, yes there are. All the airports that have a 1000' TPA
are "non-standard," although the rule of thumb you have written has
become it's own standard of sorts. This is why I brought it up. If
you're flying in a Piper at 1000' thinking it is correct, and I'm
flying a Cessna at 800' which is what was published, we're going to
have a problem because we won't be able to see each other if we're in
close proximity. Also when looking for traffic, if the traffic is at
different altitudes it makes it harder to spot them. I could cite
other examples, but I think you'll get the point. There are also
airports with different altitudes for large aircraft, or opposite
traffic rules for rotorcraft, etc...


At all airports that can expect some higher performance aircraft like
King Airs and biz jets they will have a second published pattern
altitude, almost always 1500' AGL. 99%+ of these aircraft are low wing.
So how are they supposed to see anybody?

All the airports that have a 1000' TPA
are "non-standard," although the rule of thumb you have written has
become it's own standard of sorts. This is why I brought it up. If
you're flying in a Piper at 1000' thinking it is correct, and I'm
flying a Cessna at 800' which is what was published, we're going to
have a problem because we won't be able to see each other if we're in
close proximity.
[...]
I believe when a TPA is not explicitly stated
in the AF/D the expected TPA is 800' AGL.


The hazard indicated is real, but the altitudes are no longer correct.
According to my AIM (2000, 4-3-3) a pattern of 1000 feet is reccomended unless
established otherwise. However it seems that some airports have retained the
historical 800 foot altitude you indicate was once standard, but have not
ensured that the AF/D is apprised of this. Thus, us newfangled pilots (the
ones minted after VORs g,d) will enter at 1000 feet, only to be surprised by
folks 200 feet below us. (this was exactly what I found at GBR not too long
ago).

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Altho I'm an AOPA member, I would *never* trust the AOPA book on
airports. There have been too many inconsistencies and wrong
entries.

I've not found flight-critical information to be wrong in the AOPA book.

I *have* found, on numerous occasions, however, inaccuracies in services
provided, such as restaurants and mogas.

It's still an essential tool that goes with us on every flight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You're kidding right? You would not believe what some people go thru to
go out and get back on that 45.

I've got to say that I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern just
to re-enter on a 45.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I haven't quite gotten to x-ctry flights yet, but
I'm curious and love to learn about anything that
is coming up.

That's an excellent attitude.

So, I sat down and just explored a bunch of sites and what they have.
Each one is a little different.
The knee-board from AOPA is nice, but doesn't have all freqs in use (e.g.
AWOS).
Airnav is missing something (also some things known locally at W29).
So, this is why I'm curious about insuring that I get the
best info from the best place - DEVELOPING GOOD HABITS and all.

The best pre-flight (and in-flight) info is obtained from a variety of
sources.

1. Flight Service. In this age of pop-up TFRs, get a weather briefing
before each flight. While you're talking, ask about NOTAMs (Notices To
Airmen), because they'll tell you the little "surprise!" things (like a
runways that's closed for crack-sealing, that the airport manager forgot to
call in.). Don't forget to ask specifically about all TFRs.

2. Airnav is an excellent, very thorough site, run by a real GA supporter,
Paulo Santos. You will find this site more and more valuable as your
experience grows.

3. Your Sectional Chart will have most of the pertinent radio frequencies
for your flight. (Caution: Approach frequencies for center, and a lot of
the "oddball" frequencies for approach, are NOT on your sectional chart.)

As you learn more, all of this stuff becomes intuitive (really!), and you
will find that much of what you currently find essential is actually
superfluous. But that comes with experience, so -- for now -- keep getting
all your ducks in a row before each flight.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 15 Oct 2004 22:59:15 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:


All the airports that have a 1000' TPA
are "non-standard," although the rule of thumb you have written has
become it's own standard of sorts. This is why I brought it up. If
you're flying in a Piper at 1000' thinking it is correct, and I'm
flying a Cessna at 800' which is what was published, we're going to
have a problem because we won't be able to see each other if we're in
close proximity.
[...]
I believe when a TPA is not explicitly stated
in the AF/D the expected TPA is 800' AGL.


The hazard indicated is real, but the altitudes are no longer correct.
According to my AIM (2000, 4-3-3) a pattern of 1000 feet is reccomended unless
established otherwise. However it seems that some airports have retained the
historical 800 foot altitude you indicate was once standard, but have not
ensured that the AF/D is apprised of this. Thus, us newfangled pilots (the
ones minted after VORs g,d) will enter at 1000 feet, only to be surprised by
folks 200 feet below us. (this was exactly what I found at GBR not too long
ago).

Jose


I guess there's a reason my muscles ache more than they used too. g
So, if an altitude isn't listed in the AF/D should we now assume its
1000'? And when it turns out to be 800, who is allowed to call the
FAA to have the entry modified? I've always assumed an 800' pattern
if I didn't see an entry (and have never had a problem), but what you
wrote seems to show a different standard than I was taught.

Thanks for the info.
z

(I guess the bottom line is to know the specifics of the airports you
operate at, and maintain consistency with the other pilots.)

One look out the window to see the crab angle and a peek at the GPS
grounspeed makes ATIS/ASOS/Windsocks superfluous.

How true. Sometimes you've got to wonder what people are looking for before
landing.

What I like are the guys who obviously aren't carrying a sectional chart (or
any other airport information) and insist on calling Unicom for an "airport
advisory" -- despite the airport having a published AWOS frequency.

When this occurs, everyone on the freq knows that the incoming guy:

a) Doesn't know the runways, and is hoping that the FBO will tell him the
preferred landing runway before he gets to the pattern.
b) Doesn't have a sectional, and therefore doesn't know the AWOS frequency
to check weather -- which would tell him the preferred runway in 30 seconds.

Our FBO manager loves to play with these guys, telling them stuff like
"winds are variable -- you have your choice of 6 runways..." or he'll simply
give them the AWOS frequency, laconically stating that "our AWOS will give
you the complete weather every 30 seconds...

When you listen to Unicom for 8 hours a day, every day, it's AMAZING the
stuff you hear.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:19:53 -0600, Newps
wrote:

Why would you leave the pattern to perform a 45 entry?

You're kidding right? You would not believe what some people go thru to
go out and get back on that 45.


No, I'm really not. If you're in the pattern, fly a square. Why
leave to come back?

z