Radio 'altercation' with ATC

Dial the number. I've done it plenty of times. If it's slow they'll talk to
you and on the radio at the same time, if not they'll have another
controller fill in for them for a minute.

PJ

--

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Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
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"john smith" wrote in message
...
How can you talk to the controller on the telephone while he is working
traffic?

PJ Hunt wrote:
But the point is, I have never been called by a supervisor, and I have
never
called a supervisor. I have always been able to speak directly to the
controller involved and settle it on the spot with out it going any
further.
I know I'm happy it's been done like that and I'm sure there are a few
controllers out there that appreciate the same.
For me I have learned just as valuable a lesson by talking to the
controller
without it having to have escalate in to anything else. I would suggest
that anyone who has a beef with a controller try talking directly to
that
controller first. Then after that if you are not satisfied, consider
calling a supervisor.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Howdy,


Hi,



I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."


"Maintain visual separation" is meaningless in this case as separation is
strictly the pilot's responsibility anyway.



Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?


Pretty much the same as yours.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...

Once in radio contact with ATC, whether inside of that controller's
airspace or not, the pilot should get permission before doing anything
like a 360. He (in this case) has no idea of the controller's traffic
management plan.


What are you going to do if he denies "permission" for a maneuver you deem
necessary?

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

Just a somewhat uneducated guess...

You were inbound to an airport and talking to tower. Would it have been
too
much trouble to simply key the mic and tell the controller that you were
having spacing problems on the Cherokee, and ask for permission to do your
360's?

Regardless of regulations, regardless of responsibility, isn't tower
providing sequencing at that point? Common sense would tell you that under
those circumstances, if everyone of the aircraft simply started flying
whatever path they wanted to would be an extremely dangerous situation.


The tower established the sequence when he told the Cessna to follow the
Cherokee at his 11 o'clock. From that point on the Cessna is to do what's
necessary to follow the Cherokee.

wrote in message
ps.com...

I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
me that the controller was out of line.


A proposed flight plan generally times out two hours after the proposed
departure time. Why didn't your ex-controller CFII prompt you to update the
time before that?

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.

I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90.
Squawk
0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
before wheels up before!


You don't have to call before departure, just before entering Class C
airspace.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
oups.com...

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?


The instruction was to follow the Cherokee. He followed that instruction.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?


I do.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
oups.com...

... but if you call a controller and ask for service, you ARE talking
to someone. Aren't you obligated to follow instructions given to you
at that point? What regulation indicates otherwise?


What instruction do you believe was not followed in this scenario?

"john smith" wrote in message
...

How can you talk to the controller on the telephone while he is working
traffic?


He multitasks.