Bill Gawthrop "F8" Accident - Sun 07/13/2014 - His Status

On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, SoaringXCellence wrote:
On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:07:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:06:26 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:



FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a DG-200 and Bill.







I know a DG-300 hit the cliff, if there was a DG-200 it was yet another incident. To be fair, one of those G103s had the spoilers jam full open on final, and a DG-400 also hit the cliff with one spoiler jammed open. One should also include those who stalled and pancaked in at the threshold of 19/20 during a low approach, I would be one (cracked the tailwheel and delaminated the lower rudder hinge), another was a 2-33 (pretty extensively damaged), and I vaguely remember at least one more.



OK, I'm convinced, Truckee is off my list!

In the 20+ years over which these 4 incidents have occurred, Soar Truckee has conducted something like 18,000 glider operations, nearly all of them landing on runway 20 (used to be 19). While 4 incidents is 4 too many, it is not a high percentage of operations. All of those 4 would have been prevented by planning a high, full spoiler final, even the ones with mechanical malfunctions. There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.

Truckee sounds much like Boulder, CO where there is very likely to be severe sink and wind shear on the approach to Rwy 26 in west wind conditions. A special "west wind checkout" teaches pilots to turn base opposite the numbers and plan a very steep, full-spoiler approach. If the sink is worse than expected, closing spoilers gives a pilot a chance to save the day. I've watched an 90 knot approach turn into a 55 knot approach at about 100' AGL as wind shear robbed me of airspeed. The approach went from looking way too high and fast to just about right in a couple of seconds.

Undershoots have happened - but instead of a cliff, the under-run to the glider runway is a grassy up-slope so if the glider isn't too low, the result is likely to be limited to embarrassment.

There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.

I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?

To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.

My understanding is Telluride Co. is particularly challenging. Perhaps someone with local knowledge can discuss.

On Friday, July 25, 2014 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.



I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?



To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.

I don't want to condemn any particular site, each of them has its own character and challenges. However a routine search of the NTSB accident database for the most recent 13 years of popular sites nearby shows:

Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing
Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing
Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while landing
Williams 5 accidents, 1 fatal, 2 while landing

Truckee does not stand out as being particularly dangerous. You should be careful at all soaring sites!

On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 4:36:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, July 25, 2014 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:

There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.







I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?







To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.



I don't want to condemn any particular site, each of them has its own character and challenges. However a routine search of the NTSB accident database for the most recent 13 years of popular sites nearby shows:



Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing

Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing

Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while landing

Williams 5 accidents, 1 fatal, 2 while landing



Truckee does not stand out as being particularly dangerous. You should be careful at all soaring sites!

What is the total number of flights in each of the places. Makes a big difference.

On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:51:22 PM UTC-7, Andy K wrote:
On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 4:36:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Friday, July 25, 2014 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:



There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.















I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?















To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.







I don't want to condemn any particular site, each of them has its own character and challenges. However a routine search of the NTSB accident database for the most recent 13 years of popular sites nearby shows:







Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing



Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing



Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while landing



Williams 5 accidents, 1 fatal, 2 while landing







Truckee does not stand out as being particularly dangerous. You should be careful at all soaring sites!



What is the total number of flights in each of the places. Makes a big difference.

Very hard to come by that information. Order of magnitude they are about the same. Educated guess would be Williams doing the most (because they operate all year and are pretty active). Based on radio activity Minden probably a little more than Truckee (at least in private tows), with Air Sailing following.

My point is that the site has less to do with the accident rate than many other factors. And the number of accidents is actually quite small compared to operations, and so not particularly predictive of anything - too small a sample size. If you pick one of these sites over another based on safety, I would assert that you would be doing so without much evidence. They are all good sites, each with its challenges.

My point is that the site has less to do with the accident rate than many other factors. And the number of accidents is actually quite small compared to operations, and so not particularly predictive of anything - too small a sample size. If you pick one of these sites over another based on safety, I would assert that you would be doing so without much evidence. They are all good sites, each with its challenges.



Truckee is only open 5 months a year, but is compared to year round operations. If corrected to year round, Truckee's stats would more than double!

Joe Finley was killed attempting to return to Truckee, late in the day. His crash was not on airport property, but I believe his death rightfully belongs on Truckee's stats.

Fred Fronds was severely injured and his ship destroyed when he was caught under a micro-burst (near a thunderstorm) on down-wind to 19, Truckee.

Truckee is a beautiful place to fly and has a group of dedicated followers, but it appears some are in denial of 3 increased risk factors:

1. Truckee is hard to get back into, late in the day.

2. Truckee has increased chance of thunderstorms, late in the day.

3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).

JJ Sinclair

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:31:59 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
My point is that the site has less to do with the accident rate than many other factors. And the number of accidents is actually quite small compared to operations, and so not particularly predictive of anything - too small a sample size. If you pick one of these sites over another based on safety, I would assert that you would be doing so without much evidence. They are all good sites, each with its challenges.







Truckee is only open 5 months a year, but is compared to year round operations. If corrected to year round, Truckee's stats would more than double!



Joe Finley was killed attempting to return to Truckee, late in the day. His crash was not on airport property, but I believe his death rightfully belongs on Truckee's stats.



Fred Fronds was severely injured and his ship destroyed when he was caught under a micro-burst (near a thunderstorm) on down-wind to 19, Truckee.



Truckee is a beautiful place to fly and has a group of dedicated followers, but it appears some are in denial of 3 increased risk factors:



1. Truckee is hard to get back into, late in the day.



2. Truckee has increased chance of thunderstorms, late in the day.



3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).



JJ Sinclair

JJ,

As you know, Minden and Air Sailing are also (effectively) 5 - 6 month operations. Williams is the only true 12 month operation in our area.

I'm not sure who is in denial. Truckee is more difficult to get back to at the end of the day than Minden, but pilots must always respect the terrain over which they fly. Joe Findley's crash was closer to Minden than Truckee, had he made other decisions he could easily have landed Minden or Carson (I flew out of and returned to Truckee that same day as did many others). There have been crashes in the mountains surrounding Minden and Air Sailing over the years - do we blame the airports for those? There was a mid-air with a jet a while ago, glider took off from Minden. Was that due to the increased jet traffic around Minden, and thus Minden is risky?

There have been more landing accidents at Minden than Truckee in the last 13 years, and more at Air Sailing. Is this due to runway conditions there? A few of the Minden landing accidents are attributed to strong turbulence and downdrafts by the NTSB. Several other accidents were off field landings because Minden could not be reached. There have been several mid air breakups of gliders flying out of Minden. A dangerous place to fly?

At Truckee, you always have the choice of runway 29, unobstructed at both ends and a mile long. It is always the pilot's decision on which to land.

Every site has its own challenges. I cannot agree that, on the whole, Truckee is more or less safe than the other sites in the area. I do not believe the accident statistics tell any other story.

After I posted my last thoughts on flying at Truckee, I ripped several stringers for the fuselage of the Zanonia replica I am building for the Southwest Soaring Museum. As I watched the whirling blade of my table saw, I had a thought; "I avoid loosing a finger in that spinning blade the same way I avoid the increased hazards of flying at Truckee":

1. I fully acknowledge the existence of the threat.

2.I give the threat my up most attention.

3. I avoid the threat when possible.

Some handle the increased threat by never using a table saw. Others (like me) continue to use the table saw, but acknowledge the threat it poses and give it the full attention it deserves. Anyone who uses a table saw without acknowledging the threat is asking for a trip to the ER!

Enjoy Truckee, my friend, but stay vigilant to its spinning blades!

JJ

PS, Minden and Air Sailing would not agree with the part-time status you have assigned to them.