World Championship gliders

Single design class - LS4 would be best choice. Most produced composite
single seat glider -over 1000. Simple to fly - large cockpit - many
European clubs use as first solo machine. Solid 40:1 performance. Cost just
a little bit more than a new PW5. When PW5 came out - many said the LS4
would have made a much better choice - yet IGC continued with their
misguided aproach, much as they have done with 13.5 m class.

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around..

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

On Friday, August 8, 2014 10:20:46 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class.. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.



Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.



John Cochrane

Thank you for injecting some rationality!

At the Regional level, I would add LS6s, V1s, and even tricked out ASW-20s - all are so close that the stick actuator makes the real difference!

Why would I give up my LS6 for an LS4? Nice plane (I've partnered in one) but I like going faster!

As usual, Sean is babbling about his alternate reality without, apparently, understanding how the real world works...

Kirk
66

On 08/08/2014 11:20 AM, John Cochrane wrote:

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

Couldn't agree more.

Luke

Why not try a "soaring regatta"? Gliders types that commit with say more than five entries get their own class and are scored as a one design. If fewer than the specific number of like sailplanes want to participate, they could be scored in one or two handicap divisions based on performance to round out the field.

There are plenty of less than state of the art racing machines that may have owners who would like to meet, compete, and compare notes on their particular model sailplane. Assigned task could be preferred and set according to performance of the sailplane/pilots in each class. Many of the more popular model types have newsgroups so this could be discussed among themselves to see if there is enough interest. I'm sure after an initial contest or two it would become apparent what the more popular designs will be. Maybe a poll could be taken to find out if there is enough interest in this concept before a contest organizer sticks their neck out too far.

Seems I remember a gathering a few years back of Libelle's at Air Sailing that was quite popular and successful.

Barry

At 15:20 08 August 2014, John Cochrane wrote:

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter
class.
=
V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable,
less=
than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is
far=
greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as
t=
hey get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to
be=
competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting
around=

Try less rich North American thinking
1 x V2/ASW27= 1.5 - 2 x LS4
V2a/b + W27 production LS4production
LS 4 Better club ship? More accessible to wider range of pilots. One design
means one design.


Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot
more=
important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.=20

of course having both helps - Kawa, D2a and SZD56-2

Its not atrocious weather - its 'European' weather - learn to fly in it..

John Cochrane

Originally Posted by Tom Knauff

Perhaps the rules need to limit the length of each wing rather than the wing span.

. . . .And roll on a wide lifting body fuselage that pushes the span out a couple of metres while keeping the wings the same 'length'

Can't see that being an easy rule to write and police, oh and mega bucks could make it happen to the detriment of all existing 15m gliders.

:-) Colin

Originally Posted by John Cochrane[_3_]

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around..

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

A bit of sense, must agree

John,

I agree that 15 meter class is as close to a "one-design" as we have today (a good balance exists between the various gliders currently competing). 45:1 is a good performance level albeit a little expensive for many (85k used).

All,

I think the LS6-ASW20 price/performance range is very interesting. Are there enough LS-6's in the US to be relevant?

The market and the most proactive consortium of pilots/owners will really decide what gliders form into a one design. This could be a real game changer. I also like the idea of scoring regatta's (perhaps sub scoring one designs within contests to gain traction for the idea?)

If the V3 comes along and is truly a step above...perhaps the older generation 15m glider owners (27s, V2's etc) will suddenly become "motivated" to form a one design class vs. writing SH a 175k check for the privilege of remaining competitive in 15m!

Honestly, I think 15m is a bit to expensive to be successful (85k for a used 27 these days). Again, I think the ASW20 level performance has great promise to form a one design. The price is right at 30-40k. All they have to compete in now is sports class (and club).

OK, Ive made my point. Moving on ;-)

Sean

On Friday, August 8, 2014 11:20:46 AM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class.. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.



Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.



John Cochrane

Great idea!

On Friday, August 8, 2014 2:59:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Why not try a "soaring regatta"? Gliders types that commit with say more than five entries get their own class and are scored as a one design. If fewer than the specific number of like sailplanes want to participate, they could be scored in one or two handicap divisions based on performance to round out the field.



There are plenty of less than state of the art racing machines that may have owners who would like to meet, compete, and compare notes on their particular model sailplane. Assigned task could be preferred and set according to performance of the sailplane/pilots in each class. Many of the more popular model types have newsgroups so this could be discussed among themselves to see if there is enough interest. I'm sure after an initial contest or two it would become apparent what the more popular designs will be. Maybe a poll could be taken to find out if there is enough interest in this concept before a contest organizer sticks their neck out too far.



Seems I remember a gathering a few years back of Libelle's at Air Sailing that was quite popular and successful.



Barry