In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 5:00:06 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:

But is it worth deploying the turbo but not starting it ,because with the
brakes out and gear down and turbo up the drag will be enormous,it may
even to keep you below VNE.
However you would want to know what the spin characteristics are in that
configuration.
Any thoughts?
Jon

What does the maker of your plane say about doing aerobatics (a spin for instance) with the engine boom deployed? The centrifugal force about the axis of the fuselage might be a factor.

I wanted to mention that, unlike the other V speeds, Vne is *true* airspeed, not indicated, and the corresponding indicated airspeed goes down as altitude increases. The red-line on the ASI is Vne for sea-level. A high-altitude flier might memorize or have handy the values for Vne at 10 and 15 thousand, and FL200, and FL250.

also, I just read the report:

Burruel said all aircraft's have airframe limitations and if you exceed those limits, especially in severe weather, an airplane accident like Sundays in downtown Reno is possible. "Every airplane has what's called a turbulence penetration airspeed and that's a speed that you always want to stay under if you anticipate any turbulence and then every airframe has a maximum airspeed as well, which under any circumstances you don't want to exceed that speed."


Its also worth mentioning that Vne is not based on load factor, like Va, but on flutter, which is why its True and not Indicated.

A word of caution regarding benign spiral dives. I have tried to establish a benign spiral set up in all my gliders, beginning with a ASW 20 and including; Nimbus 3, ASH 25, Std Cirrus, Ventus 2A, Pegasus, and most recently Std Libelle. I have been able to find a combination of flap, spoiler, and trim that will result in a benign spiral in all of them in when starting from a fairly normal attitude and in reasonably calm air. In almost every case if I attempted the manuever in moderate or sever turbulence or when in an steep turn, or from an unusual attitude the result was anything but benign. So please try it in adverse conditions, with you glider ,before attempting to descend thru an undercast or in cloud. I have Butterfly AH's in my ASH and am putting an LX S80 in my libelle, That plus practice is the best way to keep the wings on when in turbulence in clouds.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 7:08:36 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
So I'm flying in a blue hole in wave lift of 5 m/s, trimmed to 50 knots, in clear air with a cloud layer upwind and downwind, cloud top above and cloud base below. Suddenly I find myself in IMC. What are my options?

My glider is capable of benign spiral. I open the spoilers, (already trimmed to 50 knots) and let go of stick and rudder. Then I mentally rehearse my bail out procedure and expect to come out below the cloud (or possibly above). It seems like I should decisively and without hesitation initiate the spiral ASAP, while the glider is still relatively level and at cruising airspeed.

Suggestions?

It's never happened to me but I would probably attempt to revert back to IFR basics - needle, ball, and A/S. Opps, don't have a ball but ya got the yarn. If you keep the yarn centered, the compass heading steady, pull spoilers and trim for a 50kt descent, you have a pretty good chance until your pitot tube iced up. Of course in turbulence you might have your hands full.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:08:36 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
So I'm flying in a blue hole in wave lift of 5 m/s, trimmed to 50 knots, in clear air with a cloud layer upwind and downwind, cloud top above and cloud base below. Suddenly I find myself in IMC. What are my options?

My glider is capable of benign spiral. I open the spoilers, (already trimmed to 50 knots) and let go of stick and rudder. Then I mentally rehearse my bail out procedure and expect to come out below the cloud (or possibly above). It seems like I should decisively and without hesitation initiate the spiral ASAP, while the glider is still relatively level and at cruising airspeed.

Suggestions?

I think this is a question only a glider pilot would ask. Students seeking an airplane rating will experience several hours of instrument flight training so they'll know the answer.

The correct question to ask is not what to do after one "finds themselves" in IMC, but what can they do BEFORE it happens. The answer for glider pilots is to find a good CFII and spend hours under the hood in an airplane.

The experience will very likely do one of two things - both good. One is to create an absolute determination never to get "caught" in IMC. The other is to see the need for more IFR training or even an instrument rating.

At least a pilot will know the size of the dragon before is before tweaking its tail.

Well, this is based on the assumption that training is the answer for everything. It may be the answer for inexperience pilots. The two pilots who bailed out over Reno in the last decade where both extremely experienced ATP/ex military pilots with tons of IFR experience. Sometimes **** just happens.. This falls under the 99.9% safe rule. The 0.1% sucks when it happens. Luckily it ended well.

Ramy

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:40:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
Well, this is based on the assumption that training is the answer for everything. It may be the answer for inexperience pilots. The two pilots who bailed out over Reno in the last decade where both extremely experienced ATP/ex military pilots with tons of IFR experience. Sometimes **** just happens. This falls under the 99.9% safe rule. The 0.1% sucks when it happens. Luckily it ended well.

Ramy

Great pilots, no matter how experienced, know their training never ends. Yes, **** happens and when it does, all that ultimately matters is whether the skills brought to the task are adequate.

I also have several thousand hours of actual instrument time and what that experience taught me was that I should never place myself in a position where there was any possibility of entering IMC unless the aircraft was fully equipped and I was current and competent in using that equipment under actual IMC. Otherwise, all that experience counts for nothing.

I think the idea of a "dirty" glider is a great idea, but will set one up for losing parts of the glider, like the flaps and ailerons, then the glider itself. Most gliders have airspeed limits on gear, flaps. I always had a very small level installed in the middle of the panel on my gliders (a level that can be installed on an AH). But then I have had much training with parcel panel IFR. Another poster mentioned ball (yaw string), airspeed, compass and altimeter can keep you in control, yes it can, but you had better have much practice and not have to scan from canopy to various parts of the panel to get all this information. Go rent a 172 and instructor, you will see how difficult it is, and a 172 will fly perfect without the pilot input.

I think a plan is the best, know the benign spiral characteristics of your glider in various configurations. Have a GPS coordinate for low ground, get some IFR training, get a vario with instant on AH, if you are below manuovering speed open the airbrakes. If you are not confident of your IFR skills try to freeze the controls instead of chasing instrument indications. Get a good flight instructor and practice your plan. Talk to other pilots about your plan and do not make any sudden control inputs unless you have a visual of the horizon. I saw someone posted that Bob got caught between two cloud layers. This has happened to me in both helicopters and airplanes, while you are not hard IFR you essentially are as there is no horizon. Same thing can happen in haze or low light.

No one mentioned spinning through the clouds. My personal view is that unless you know the sustained spin characteristics, you are likely to end up with the spin turning into a death spiral.

Good discussion though with lots of ideas to process.

Let me preface my statements with some background. I have hundreds of hours of actual instrument time in military and light and medium civil aircraft. Almost all of it was hand flown - no autopilot. A lot in the monsoons of Vietnam. I also have some hours of actual instrument in my glider where I've been doing some experiments. I do not have any wave experience.

A "benign spiral" is only benign if everything remains in equilibrium. You can practice it all day in fairly smooth air. All that goes out the window when you enter turbulence.

In the military, I was a standardization and instrument instructor, similar to an FAA examiner. On every flight, we always played the "what if" game. What if this or that were to happen. As gilder pilots, everyone always plays the "what if I loss lift game" and plan for places to land. We should be considering any and all situations and failures. By the way, you don't need to be in the aircraft to do that. You can do almost as well by flying a chair and planning alternatives.

One of the things I always did with an instrument student was covering all gyros, airspeed, and altimeter, and then told them I wanted them to maintain control of the aircraft and descend 2,000. They still had a compass and outside air temp. Most gliders have a compass and a few have air temp.

With only those two instruments you can accomplish the task in actual instrument conditions. Think back to our training about compass lead and lag. Remember what happens if you are heading north or south and bank the aircraft?

Just in case you don't, if you are heading north and bank the aircraft, the compass will lag the turn. Actually, if you bank to the right, it will show a turn to the west. If heading south and you bank the aircraft, the compass will lead your turn. As soon as you bank to the right, the compass will swing to the right, even if you don't turn.

Now you know the secret - head SOUTH and try to keep the compass pointing south. As soon as you bank to the right, the compass will start a swing right. Correct to level and it will return to south, Bank left and it will swing left. It doesn't take much practice to get it down.

As for descending 2,000. all you need do is watch the outside air temp. The standard lapse rate is 2 degrees centigrade or 3 1/2 degrees Fahrenheit per 1,000 feet. A temp increase of 4C is approximately 2,000.

If we see clouds closing in on us, the normal first thought is to speed up to get away from the clouds. That's exactly the opposite of what you should be considering. First, at high altitudes, it would be easy to exceed VNE. Next, we don't want to over stress the aircraft in turbulence.

On most gliders, I would drop my gear to increase drag until I could get below flap speed. Then I would extend all the drag flaps you can. Then when slow, I'd extend spoilers or speed brakes. Your best friend in this case is not speed, but controlled rate of descent.

FYI, my plan for the instrument flying experiments I have been doing is to complete all three legs of the diamond badge in Georgia. That would be a first. All the IFR flying is on an instrument clearance with block altitudes. I haven't figured out yet how to maintain an assigned altitude in a glider!

Charlie