Chukar's own account

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 4:50:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have given a lot of thought as to what I would do in my Ventus b given such circumstances and my conclusion is one that I have tried in the ventus but not in any other glider. I would ask Kirk to try it in his ls6 and report back.

Thinking of what breaks gliders up and it always comes down to speed. Over speed and something breaks off. So for the Ventus B the only way to be able to control only the speed, I would say here that the other two axis have to be at the stops so that the only thing I am controlling is pitch and therefore speed, BEFORE losing spacial awareness, I get it as dirty as I can. Full dive brakes, gear down. I don't have to worry about flaps as when the dive brakes our fully open the flaps are down, but if I have time I would put then down as well as it puts the ailerons down a bit as well. Then cross control to full deflection of the stick and depression of the rudder, doesn't matter which direction as long as you go to full deflection. Once the stick is at the aileron stop the only movement is pitch and that I focus on the airspeed indicator and keep it between 60-90 knots.

Now in the ventus this gives me a slow turning (30-45 second) spiral dive that is fairly stable and even in turbulence is easy enough to maintain 60-90 kts. This allows me to concentrate on only one thing airspeed. This is also giving me about a 2000 fpm descent rate usually enough to come out the bottom of most any cloud.

Any way, I would like to see if that would work in almost any glider or is it unique to the ventus. Flame shields on!

CH

I will make a point to try this in my Ventus C next time I have lots of altitude, and report back.

Matt

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 06:18:59 -0700, platypterus101 wrote:

Re the full-aileron cross-control suggestion a few posts up:

As I understood it, you were giving full rudder also?

Wow, I've never heard anything like that suggested before.

One thing I'd urge you to further explo how much variation in
airspeed can be tolerated before the glider is no longer in a stable
spiral? E.g. if the airspeed accidentally increases by X mph, do you
the dynamics change enough that you go out of control? The dynamics
that keep the various turning forces approximately balanced, and the
various roll torques exactly balanced, may be extremely
airspeed-sensitive.

I'm not guessing one way or the other, just curious.

I think you've misplaced this post. I haven't made and "full-aileron
cross-control suggestions" in this or any other thread.

What I *did* say is that my club requires members to do annual spin and
winch launch failure check flights. We do this at the start of each
flying season: members are not authorised to fly solo until these have
been completed. This sounds eminently sensible to me.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

My initial entry into the cross control is usually with wings level just initiate a forward slip. Second thought is that speed between 60-90 doesn't seem to change the dynamic much a little more buffeting and shaking the faster you go but that happens in the ventus with dive brakes open in level flight.

CH

At 17:40 24 April 2015, wrote:
My initial entry into the cross control is usually with wings level just
in=
itiate a forward slip. Second thought is that speed between 60-90 doesn't
s=
eem to change the dynamic much a little more buffeting and shaking the
fast=
er you go but that happens in the ventus with dive brakes open in level
fli=
ght.

CH

What about the sideslip IAS errors when trying to control airspeed by
flying
so cross-controlled in a spiral dive?

And are there issues with torsional stresses on the tail boom at 90 kts IAS

(probably more from pitot cross-flow errors) with sustained full rudder? I

have no idea whether that is a worry in the proposed scenario but I am
recalling the ETA that twisted off its tail in a spin recovery.

Eta twisted off the tail boom during a recovery from a spiral dive, not a spin. Huge difference in loads.

Bert
TW

Beggs/Mueller only works on aircraft certified for spins, because those aircraft will naturally exit the spin. Planes slow to exit the spin (like my Mooney http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html) need brisk full forward elevator. And even those certified for spins, with B/M, the CG needs to be far enough forward that the aircraft will nose over when the rotation stops. Even then (and I've posted this before), once the spin stops, you still have to break the dive without exceeding Vne (too slowly) and without a secondary accelerated stall (too fast).

here's a video of me in upset training recovering from an inverted spin using B/M: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVFhkQmXng

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 8:30:04 AM UTC-4, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 5:04:54 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

You overlooked the sarcastic intent of my earlier post. I'd rather not come right out and say what I really think about the USA approach to Spin and Cloud Flying training (because I'm not a CFI-G or an elite pilot.)

My apologies, I must have had my sarcasm detector off when I read your post ;^]. I'll stand by my recommendation for the BGA's magazine - heads and shoulders better than Soaring!


But I think that the same USA mindset comes into play for both sorts of training. The UK mindset seems starkly different. I take it from Martin's comments that most UK glider pilots are confident about spin recovery and quite a few are confident about cloud flying. If you step outside the ranks of elite USA glider pilots, there are quite a few pilots that are not confident about spin recovery, and emergency cloud flying capability is rare, much rarer than glider pilots flying in wave.

I agree. A classic example in our club: we have a sweet K-13 bought new, that is placarded "Spins Prohibited". It was that way from day one on the FAA's Airworthiness Certificate. On a plane that is considered a good spin trainer by the rest of the civilized world....

However, if a pilot is not confident about spin recovery, or does not REALLY understand the consequences of getting caught IMC without gyro instruments (and training to use them) or terminal velocity dive brakes - ITS ON HIM to get that training! Elitism has nothing to do with it - survival does!


I expect that quite a few glider pilots like me get ****ed off when another pilot enters a spin at a recoverable altitude but dies. If I fly into IMC and die from lacking of training/instruments... I'm going to be really ****ed off.

****ed off? not worth it; too many stupid people doing stupid things to waste energy on being ****ed off. I do enough stupid things myself! Better to learn from their mistakes an avoid the same.


Sure. I can take the initiative to train IFR in a SEL and add instruments to my panel (but I can't practice in 'easy clouds', gain proficiency and stay current). Some individuals will do that. But if I lived in the UK, the training culture would have me ready to fly in clouds by now. The USA safety culture is broken wrt spins and cloud flying (and perhaps other scenarios are treated likewise).

In the UK, the regulatory environment makes it practical for glider to cloud fly. In the US, it really doesn't. Not impossible, just expensive and complicated. So, unless you have the time and money to rig your glider for IMC/IFR flight, and obtain and maintain IFR currency, you really don't have the option to fly in clouds, legally. And if you put yourself in a position where that happens, you are in a full blown emergency and should treat it as such! In the US, you should NEVER intentionally let yourself get in a position where you will get caught in clouds. Period. Under Cu's, it's not a real issue - you can stay clear if you pay attention. In wet wave, better be REAL careful; if you get trapped on top or enveloped in a lennie you might as well call MAYDAY to ATC and prepare for the worst - at least that way someone will know where to start looking for the wreckage!

One final comment about spins - I am convinced that most glider accidents attributed to spins are actually the result of a low speed departure into a spiral dive. At low altitude, the difference can be fatal - the actions for a spin recovery (full rudder against, stick forward) while accelerating in a spiral dive will basically spear you into the ground. Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders except for those designed to teach then (or designed for aerobatics). So perhaps we need to stop worrying about "spin" recovery and emphasize "upset" or "departure from controlled flight" recovery, being able to determine what your glider is doing and respond accordingly.

Might save a few lives that way...

Kirk
66

A key aspect of spin training in the UK is to recognise and differentiate from a spiral dive.

Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders

===========

Not the case at all. All modern gliders will spin, and quite readily. Some of the trainers are hard to spin, but it can be done.

On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 3:08:12 PM UTC-5, Nick wrote:
Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders

===========

Not the case at all. All modern gliders will spin, and quite readily. Some of the trainers are hard to spin, but it can be done.

Let's get our definitions straight. All modern gliders will depart controlled flight, and some will stabilize in a steady spin (airspeed not increasing). But many (most?) of the racing gliders will only be in the spin state (one or both wings stalled, with yaw present) for a short period of time, then will transition to a spiral dive, even with full in-spin controls. During the departure and incipient spin phase, the correct recovery procedure is to reduce angle of attack and stop the yaw - then recover from the dive. However, once transitioned to the spiral dive, the angle of attack is no longer the issue - it's the bank angle that is going to kill you, and that has to be reduced, then the angle of attack increased to recover from the dive (the G helps hold down the speed).

Blindly thinking "stall - spin - full rudder, hesitate, forward stick" can be a killer when all is needed is to release aft pressure on the stick to break the departure, or if speed is increasing, rolling to wings level and PULLING on the stick.

I guess my LS6 isn't a modern glider - it will only depart in landing configuration, and then after less than a turn is in a spiral dive. In thermalling flaps, it may drop a wing, but doesn't enter a stabilized rotation. Of course, there are situations where you can force the glider into a fully stalled configuration (unloaded recovery from a winch launch failure, then trying to turn at too low a speed, for example) that may result in a turn or two of a spin as the glider accelerated out of the stall angle of attack. But at least in my LS6, it's a spiral dive that is the problem, NOT a spin.

Kirk
66