Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

At 23:11 28 October 2015, PAGA wrote:
Yes please, could you tell me more about the DG-100G ELAN vs the DG-101?
The LS-1c is definitively at the top of my list, but I would look at
another ASW.

Regards - Paga

The 101 had some minor improvements over the 100G :

- Full length forward opening canopy (vs the 100 with it's fixed front and
removable or rearward hinged back section)

- Automatic elevator connection

- Shock absorbers on the mainwheel mechanism

afaik there are no aerodynamic differences - the 100G of course already had
the fixed tailplane vs the all moving tail of the original 100.

Technically I think most DG101's are the DG101G-ELAN (which means they have
the fixed tail and were produced by the ELAN company in Slovenia).

Either of the fixed tail versions makes a very nice first glider, the 101G
is slightly nicer with the big canopy. They have very good control
authority at low speeds, nice handling, good airbrakes and reasonable
performance. Gelcoat on DG's lasts longer than some others, but of course
will not last forever and does depend on the climate and use.

A couple other points not already mentioned by the others with regard to the Pik-20 (though they don't address your main points of interest).

I love mine (800 hrs in it) minus it's performance in rain or with bugs (and I hate the detachable canopy on mine), but I don't recommend the Pik-20 or -20B for low-time pilots due to the very different landing approach for flapped/no-spoiler gliders. [This challenge however is also a huge selling point for those able to use them...I've had no problem clearing a fence or even a shed and landing in the first 400 ft of someone's backyard or clearing powerlines and landing very short.] I had several hundred flights before my first flight in the Pik and I think that's in the ballpark of appropriate min experience (my opinion).

If you'd like to fly fast in any ridge/wave then you'll want to look at the max rough air speed of all the gliders...the Pik has the highest (by far). Additionally, if you ever think you'll need to make a controlled, speed-limited descent (55-70 mph with the Pik at full flap setting) then the Pik is also the only one of the three that will do that for you, or conversely a max capability descent at up to ~12,0000 fpm.

Thank you for all the feedback, including to a gentleman who emailed me directly but I can't seem to find a valid reply-to email address in his message. Over the weekend I have seen the DG-100 ELAN, and it now poses a serious dilemma to me: I have to decide between LS-1c/d and a DG-100, both very clean, both including their trailer (although the LS-1c trailer is a bit idiosyncratic, I like the minimalism of the DG-100 trailer which is a but cleaner inside as well). I have not yet seen the PIK, but as my hunt for a glider progress I am thinking that I might want to keep the PIK as a project for my second glider, once I am done flying the one I am about to buy...

Other than the fact that the seller of the LS-1c seems more reasonable than the seller of the DG-100 in terms of pricing (he's sub $20K, but I think they are both asking for a bit too much money at this point, that's fair, some negotiation will be needed), I like them both and I am not sure what to do now! Ah, how to deal with these damn 1st world problems that we have :-)

Are there any owners of DG-100 here who would be willing to discuss privately with me about what kind of pricing I should consider when bidding for used one? Kindly send me a private email if you do. Thanks

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:05:31 AM UTC-5, PAGA wrote:
Are there any owners of DG-100 here who would be willing to discuss privately with me about what kind of pricing I should consider when bidding for used one? Kindly send me a private email if you do. Thanks

Just Wondering, what turned you off of the Pik? Was it the wet wings stories or the problem supporting major fiberglass repairs? I'm starting a similar search, so this thread has been very helpful.
Chris

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 10:51:58 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

I previously owned an LS-1f ... what a thoroughbred. thinking what you wanted to do and it did it. tight cockpit, but my opine is you were wearing the LS-1f not riding in it. a big draw back is the annual extortion from Herr Webber (DG)to be able to purchase parts, even the L'hottleir safety sleeve. just my opine

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 9:33:48 PM UTC-5, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
Just Wondering, what turned you off of the Pik? Was it the wet wings stories or the problem supporting major fiberglass repairs? I'm starting a similar search, so this thread has been very helpful.
Chris

I have not given up on the PIK, the one I was looking at near me is not visible yet because I asked he went through inspection before driving 5 hours to get there... What worries me about PIKs is the numbers of offerings : it seems that there are a lot offered for sale, here and there, for no good reason other than the sellers might know something we do not. Other than that I have heard good thing about that kind of ship, you have to be ready to use flaps a lot and not rely on spoilers much, some say it's a challenging glider to fly and have recommended to not let low hours pilots get on it too soon without proper briefing and training. Personally I have used flaps on power plane, so I like the idea of a fully flapped glider, even without spoilers, but I have no experience flying a PIK yet.

The glider market is sophisticated. If there are a number of a certain model being offered at apparently low prices it is less likely that you'll sell it easily and get your money back. The best hope is to sell it to someone who doesn't realise that as a first glider - and so complete the cycle.

(Speaking as someone who bought a Diamant 18 as a first glass glider.)

My take is that there are more pilots looking for their second ships.
First time buyers benefit from the low prices of the older ships which,
while no match for the current crop of gliders, can still make a
remarkable showing. After a year or two, you'll want something "better"
(read newer), and you'll offer it for about what you paid for it or even
a bit more! Let's say you buy a glider for $20K, fly it for 2 years/300
hours (if you're a wild man!), and sell it for $18K. You've flown much
better performance than you could have rented and paid only about
$7/hour plus whatever fixed costs you pay for storage, maintenance, and
insurance. How's that for a deal?

On 11/8/2015 5:01 AM, wrote:
The glider market is sophisticated. If there are a number of a certain model being offered at apparently low prices it is less likely that you'll sell it easily and get your money back. The best hope is to sell it to someone who doesn't realise that as a first glider - and so complete the cycle.

(Speaking as someone who bought a Diamant 18 as a first glass glider.)

--
Dan, 5J

Yes but I have found that some sellers think the price someone should pay is equal to "how much money they put in their [beloved] ship". While it's a good thing to know they loved their glider and probably took great care of it, hoping to recover 100% of the money you put in it is plain naive and ignoring depreciation and the fact that better gliders are now available at the price they paid for their ship 5 or 7 years ago. And the ship they bought 5 years ago is now 5 years older, probably has new ADs to comply with, some cables to change, a higher probability for some unexpected maintenance, etc... Also winter is coming, someone needs to pay for storage for a few months, at least here out East :-)