glider/airplane collision

Not sure it is a better way, but this is how we do this:

We have two pilots who regularly exercise their aerobatic capabilities
in gliders.
We have no aerobatics box.
Power , microlight, autogiros and the occasional helicopter share the
field.

We keep the aerobatics close to the field - for a couple of reasons.
1] It is easy to misjudge energy use or miss changes in conditions,
while engaged in such maneuvers, so it is better to be near a runway.
2] These are higher risk activities, and I would prefer they crash on
the airfield if they are going to - at least we have all the rescue kit
handy...
3] People on the ground can, and (in the case of our club) the launch
marshal is expected to keep a look out. That improves safety by
increasing the chance of people noticing an unsafe situation.
4] Communication is better, the ground station can warn any potential
conflicting traffic.

For safety we have some restrictive rules, that the aerobatics pilots
sometimes resent.
1] No loops / spins / rolls initiated below 2000" agl, chandelles etc
have a bottom altitude of 1000" AGL.
2] Practice finishes and high speed passes are on a "permission basis"
at the discretion of the duty instructor. Any pilot doing an impromptu
aerobatic pull up from his unannounced high speed pass will get a lecture.
3] Any aerobatics flying waits till normal traffic is clear of the
airfield. "Normal" flying has precedence.

Typically we then have "predictable" traffic at circuit height. Lots of
eyes watching the show, and looking out, and decent separation. works
for us so far.



Jack wrote:

On 2004/01/17 16:05, in article , "ADP"
wrote:



I don't need to know any "official" thing about the accident
in question, other than that it occurred.


Hmmmm....



While you have an interesting degree of faith in NTSB reports, I do not
share it.


My frustration with the ability/willingness of human beings to acquire and
use knowledge probably compares to your own, and I appreciate those who make
a sincere effort.



In any accident with which I am familiar, little valuable
insight has emerged regarding the genesis of said accident....


That has not been my experience, though there are many frustrating examples
of a lack either of significant data or of emphasis on certain information
which was available -- in my opinion.



While we are waiting for the NTSB report shall we continue as if nothing has
happened?


No, but let's avoid the type of pointed discussion which is little more than
veiled accusation and ignorant speculation concerning the accident in
question, particularly after it has been made clear to the participants here
that there are active r.a.s. members who were personally acquainted with the
victims, and while the psychic wounds are sill fresh. I think that is not
too much to ask of one another.

Now that the NTSB has published a preliminary report, we have something
which can be sifted for reminders of how to improve our own piloting skills
and judgment.



In the present case, can we not make certain that everyone on the field
knows the bounds of the "Acro box" and that it is published in NOTAMS for
visiting pilots?


Exactly the sort of thing we should do, and in fact we must encourage every
pilot to be aware of every acrobatic box/area in the airspace in which he
operates. This information is a part of preflight planning and can be found
in the A/FD and updated via NOTAM.

One of my pet annoyances is that radio usage and discipline is frequently
unsatisfactory among users of the sort of airfields where glider operations
are usually found. However, that's no excuse for sailplane pilots not to
participate. Particularly in the older two-seaters used in much training, I
find that radio usage is under emphasized.



What is the wisdom of establishing an aerobatic area so near an operating
airport?


The few with which I am familiar are all quite near an airport, though the
airports themselves are very small out-of-the-way fields. That may not be
true elsewhere. I expect that acrobatic pilots can give you reasons why
establishing the box close to the field is a good idea.



I don't pretend to know the answers but surely discussion can not harm the
expansion of knowledge.


True enough, if carried out with some regard for the fact that the members
of r.a.s. in particular and the soaring community in general have closer
connections with one another than some posters may realize.



If discussion makes one uncomfortable then perhaps one is in the wrong
business.


[Seeker of the truth and Grand Wizard of the Anti-politically correct
movement.]


Some here are in the "business" of soaring, but I am confidant that nearly
everyone here has a far deeper interest in the sport than just the bottom
line. And it has been my experience during my short time in the company of
soaring enthusiasts that there is relatively little political correctness
when it comes to soaring. Lift, drag, and that old devil gravity being what
they are, calling a spade a spade is pretty much the order of the day.



Jack

On 18 Jan 2004 07:08:36 GMT, (Mark Navarre)
wrote:

Questions to ponder:
1)What was the K21 doing at the top of a loop at approx 800 feet agl, and where
was it a few seconds before that, and at what speed?
2)What is the official floor of the aerobatic box, NTSB states surface to 6600
msl, this must not be correct: How can the box be in the traffic pattern and
still extend to the surface?
3)see FAR 91.303(e) for aerobatic flight AGL limitations.

Mark,

One can apply for a waiver to many of the paragraphs of 91.303,
including allowing aerobatics down to the surface, over airports,
within airways, etc. Go to the faa website, search for 8700, the
General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, look in volume 2
chapter 48. It tells all about it.

I have an aerobatic practice box waiver over an airport in Class D
with control tower, light airline traffic, medium bizjet traffic,
gliders, etc. I fly both powered and glider aerobatic aircraft in the
box. Especially for glider aerobatics, you want it right over a
runway. The tower does a good job keeping me separated from other
traffic. The box floor is 500 AGL.

Boxes like that at Turf is not all that uncommon. This is just one
more good reason to read the NOTAMS before you go fly.

Klein

(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message . com...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats. My next goal : run this guy from a small solar cell.
(1.5 watt from a half letter size cell).
Rgds,
Andrew

In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA

--
Mike Lindsay

Have a look at:

http://www.avionix.com/collis.html

for answers to all the questions you asked . . . and more. I also would like
to hear from more uses of TPAS devices. I've been following them with
interest for some years. The earlier ones that didn't report altitude were
not acceptable to me - - the newer units this past year are better, and this
one seems like it might be the best of the lot.
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
"Mike Lindsay" wrote in message
...
In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message
news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA

--
Mike Lindsay

Mike,
The unit is small and light (29 oz)and the L shape fits very well.
The full specification is available from www.proxalert.com
I bought it direct from Proxalert Inc. It comes with free fedex 2 days in the US.
Andrew

"bumper" wrote in message ...
Have a look at:

http://www.avionix.com/collis.html

for answers to all the questions you asked . . . and more. I also would like
to hear from more uses of TPAS devices. I've been following them with
interest for some years. The earlier ones that didn't report altitude were
not acceptable to me - - the newer units this past year are better, and this
one seems like it might be the best of the lot.
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
"Mike Lindsay" wrote in message
...
In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message
news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA

--
Mike Lindsay

There is another Tcas that is even smaller and can be battery powered.
It seems to have more favorable reviews. www.surecheckaviation.com



Mike Lindsay wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA

There is another Tcas that is even smaller and can be battery powered.
It seems to have more favorable reviews. www.surecheckaviation.com



Mike Lindsay wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA

There is another Tcas that is even smaller and can be battery powered.
It seems to have more favorable reviews. www.surecheckaviation.com



Mike Lindsay wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA

There is another Tcas that is even smaller and can be battery powered.
It seems to have more favorable reviews. www.surecheckaviation.com



Mike Lindsay wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew
writes
(Sandy McAusland) wrote in message news:e94d757a.0401131448.1
...
I heard a report of a collision between a glider and a power plane
somewhere in California sometime in December 2003. Does anyone have
any info on this ??

Hi,
Flying with a Proxalert R5 anti collision system since a month.
(www.proxalert.com) It works great and provide info about the three
closest threats.

Please tell us about this gadget. Where did you get it from?
How big and heavy is it? does it need a draggy antenna?

TIA