Landout Laws

At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Nyal Williams' wrote in message
...
At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original
post,
but very little
addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly
true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal
decision
in this state on this matter.

I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in
areas with higher
population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated,
western USA, a lot
of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to
run cattle. That which
is in private hands is often operated by hired hands
for the absentee
landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad
land grant dating
from the construction of the transcontinental railroad
and farmed by leasee
who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached
by someone representing
himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure
that this person is,
in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab
a fast buck.

Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and
pilot ready to depart
with no locals having made an appearance. In this
case, the legal and
proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff
and report the
'emergency landing' and provide contact information
along with the exact
Lat/long of the landing point although some would,
no doubt, choose to
quietly depart.

In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting
the landowner, I
have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem'
was a Nebraska
farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because,
I suspect, she just
wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town
all that often.

Bill Daniels

It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
As a protection before starting the season, know
in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
these figures quietly in mind.

I'm not a lawyer, however, as I understand it, an off field landing comes
under the heading of, "Any port in a storm maritime law."

It is the same law permitting one to break into a cabin for survival
purposes rather than die of exposure.

You are still liable for damages, but can not be held for "Trespass."

In case of a dispute, your best friend is the police, 2nd your insurance
company.


--
Thomas Knauff
Knauff & Grove, Inc.
Schempp-Hirth Sailplanes
3523 South Eagle Valley Road
Julian, Pa 16844
Phone (814) 355 2483
Fax (814) 355 2633
www.eglider.org


"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Nyal Williams' wrote in message
...
At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original
post,
but very little
addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly
true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal
decision
in this state on this matter.

I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in
areas with higher
population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated,
western USA, a lot
of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to
run cattle. That which
is in private hands is often operated by hired hands
for the absentee
landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad
land grant dating
from the construction of the transcontinental railroad
and farmed by leasee
who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached
by someone representing
himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure
that this person is,
in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab
a fast buck.

Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and
pilot ready to depart
with no locals having made an appearance. In this
case, the legal and
proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff
and report the
'emergency landing' and provide contact information
along with the exact
Lat/long of the landing point although some would,
no doubt, choose to
quietly depart.

In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting
the landowner, I
have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem'
was a Nebraska
farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because,
I suspect, she just
wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town
all that often.

Bill Daniels

It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
As a protection before starting the season, know
in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
these figures quietly in mind.

Nyal Williams wrote:

It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
As a protection before starting the season, know
in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
these figures quietly in mind.

I'm reminded of someone who landed out during a contest at Montague,
California, about 15 years ago. The farmer became obnoxious, demanded
something like $200, the pilot offered $50 compensation for what was
essentially no damage. The sheriff was called, and the next day all
assembled at field, including the glider, and a county agricultural
official. Said official estimated the damage to the crop, under the best
possible circumstances for the farmer, to be less than $25. Pilot again
offered $50; the farmer said "$200 or nothing", so nothing is what he
got. Pilot took glider and left.

--
-----
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric,
Was that Bruce L. that landed in Butte Valley? He said he had the farmer all
calmed down when another glider saw him in the field and decided to land there
also.
Bruce said there was just no controlling the farmer after that.

Out of Air Sailing, a pilot landed and walked up to the farm house to find a
note pinned to the front door. "I have gone to town, if you're here when I get
back, I'll shoot you".
Mean farmers in Nevada.
JJ Sinclair

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Eric,
Was that Bruce L. that landed in Butte Valley? He said he had the farmer all
calmed down when another glider saw him in the field and decided to land there
also.
Bruce said there was just no controlling the farmer after that.

No, just one glider. As I remember it, the farmer wasn't angry, just
obnoxious. I very vaguely remember "Tom" as the pilot's name, and that
the Sheriff told Tom people around there didn't much like the farmer either.


--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

These stories go on forever...

I'll add one more, then retire from the thread.

I landed out during the Sports Class Nats at Cordele, Georgia (89,
90?). It was a field left fallow among the peanuts. No damage, easy
access, no worries. I walked the half mile to the farmer's house and
knocked. The door opened and out he came, about 5'6", 150 lbs, in
overalls, and clearly interested in what I was doing on his doorstep.
He began talking rapidly. I didn't understand a single word he said.
But I recognized why. It was his unusual accent. I needed to break the
code -- understand the music of it -- then I'd be able to understand
him. The key in such situations is to keep your eyes on the person's
lips. It usually only takes several seconds...

I suddenly became aware that he wasn't talking anymore. He was staring
at me, 6'2" tall, 190 lbs, slightly hunched over, slack jawed,
blinking stupidly, staring at his mouth. Add the silly hat, the open
fly, and a decade old Region 4 tee shirt, threadbare and stained, and
he came to the only logical conclusion...

He was very kind to me after that. Speaking slowly. Offering the
phone. Happy to see that my tenders were able to find me and take me
back whence I'd come.

Moral of the story? Those in need typically recieve aid in proportion
to their need. I'm sure this man thought, "There but for the grace of
God," and responded with kindness. Not particularly wholesome for my
ego. But you go with the flow...

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!

One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the back
"good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to the
person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local glider
ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.


Steve Hopkins wrote:

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!

I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land in
a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you to
remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages, gross
per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other crops
it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would like
it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care of
any damage and you will be ok.


"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
news2TXb.4247$hE.3741@fed1read07...
One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the back
"good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to the
person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local glider
ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.


Steve Hopkins wrote:

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!








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Do you happen to know what the value of cotton is per acre?

Were I fly, most often the farmer/rancher is not on site, and I have not
even seen ownership info posted so that I could contact him later. In
situations like this, what should a pilot/crew do to minimize damage, and
reduce the chances of angering the farmer? Is cutting and then repairing a
chain link acceptable or not? If not what is the alternative?

Thank you,

"Birdy" wrote in message
...
I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land
in
a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you to
remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages,
gross
per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other
crops
it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would like
it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care of
any damage and you will be ok.


"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
news2TXb.4247$hE.3741@fed1read07...
One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the back
"good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to the
person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local glider
ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.


Steve Hopkins wrote:

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!








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