Mountain flying knowledge required?

I would take a couple of hours training on mountain flying.
That is all that I fly - I live in a valley!
If the left side of a narrow valley (with an out at the end) has a
downdraft, and the right side has an updraft would you fly left, right
or middle? And why?
If you can't answer that without even thinking about it, a couple of
hours of mountain training would be a good investment. Some areas have
downdrafts of up to 3000 ft per minute. Where would you expect to find
them?

you probably only need a couple of hours - it's fun and it makes you
safer. So my advice is do the training. When you are going down at 3000
ft a minute, it's too late to get the yellow pages out

HTH

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article ,
"Peter R." wrote:

In late May I am planning to fly across the US, from NY to southern
California, with a return stop in Denver, CO. This will be done in a
single-engine, turbo-normalized Bonanza with on-board O2, and this is
the first time I have done this. My plan is to fly the majority of it
under IFR flight rules and at altitudes in the mid-to-upper teens (westerly
wind-depending).

When planning my flight from Palm Springs, CA, to Denver, I have decided to
avoid the high peaks in which a direct flight would result and instead
planned a flight east to Albuquerque, NM, then northeast/north to Denver
across the flat lands of Colorado, east of the mountains.

Disregarding the concept of density altitude as I am already familiar with
its affect on aircraft performance, would it still be advisable for me to
seek out some mountain flying instruction? My intention for this flight
is not to get too near the higher peaks of the Rockies, with the exception
of overflying the southern range in New Mexico.

tony roberts wrote:

If the left side of a narrow valley (with an out at the end) has a
downdraft, and the right side has an updraft would you fly left, right
or middle? And why?
If you can't answer that without even thinking about it, a couple of
hours of mountain training would be a good investment.

I may look up an instructor when I am there. Thanks.

--
Peter


















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FWIW

You don't fly down the middle, because that may not leave you enough
space to do a 180 either way - there is always the chance that you may
have to.

You don't fly on the updraft side - even though that initially seems the
safest - because if things change and you need to do a 180, you now have
to turn into the downdraft - which you may not be able to recover from.

So you fly in the downdraft side. If you can handle that you will get
through. If things get worse, at least your 180 will be into a nice safe
updraft.

Maybe not too obvious at first - but when you think about it . . .

That's why I am suggesting a couple of hours training.

Looking forward to reading about your flight

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article nospam-9D7531.23115423042005@shawnews,
tony roberts wrote:

I would take a couple of hours training on mountain flying.
That is all that I fly - I live in a valley!
If the left side of a narrow valley (with an out at the end) has a
downdraft, and the right side has an updraft would you fly left, right
or middle? And why?
If you can't answer that without even thinking about it, a couple of
hours of mountain training would be a good investment. Some areas have
downdrafts of up to 3000 ft per minute. Where would you expect to find
them?

you probably only need a couple of hours - it's fun and it makes you
safer. So my advice is do the training. When you are going down at 3000
ft a minute, it's too late to get the yellow pages out

HTH

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article ,
"Peter R." wrote:

In late May I am planning to fly across the US, from NY to southern
California, with a return stop in Denver, CO. This will be done in a
single-engine, turbo-normalized Bonanza with on-board O2, and this is
the first time I have done this. My plan is to fly the majority of it
under IFR flight rules and at altitudes in the mid-to-upper teens (westerly
wind-depending).

When planning my flight from Palm Springs, CA, to Denver, I have decided to
avoid the high peaks in which a direct flight would result and instead
planned a flight east to Albuquerque, NM, then northeast/north to Denver
across the flat lands of Colorado, east of the mountains.

Disregarding the concept of density altitude as I am already familiar with
its affect on aircraft performance, would it still be advisable for me to
seek out some mountain flying instruction? My intention for this flight
is not to get too near the higher peaks of the Rockies, with the exception
of overflying the southern range in New Mexico.

tony roberts wrote:

That's why I am suggesting a couple of hours training.

Thanks.

Looking forward to reading about your flight

I'll be bringing along a digital camera and will post pictures with the
story up on my website when I return.

--
Peter


















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I'm a flatlander having only done mountain flying in a 125 hp Tripacer,
and then in 172s, but my thing was to stay light, preferably do it only
in the AM (especially with the family along), listen to the locals,
know how to lean, and keep your schedule and flight planning very
flexible.

My biggest scare was being twice afraid the bottom would fall out of my
airplane going thru Glacier and the Canadian rockies - and it wasn't
choppy......

tony roberts wrote:



You don't fly down the middle, because that may not leave you enough
space to do a 180 either way

Right.


You don't fly on the updraft side - even though that initially seems the
safest - because if things change and you need to do a 180, you now have
to turn into the downdraft - which you may not be able to recover from.

Wrong. You fly on the downwind side, also known as the updraft side.
If you lose your engine and you are in a downdraft just how smart is
that? You don't knowingly fly in downdrafts, unless of course you want
to go down.



So you fly in the downdraft side. If you can handle that you will get
through. If things get worse, at least your 180 will be into a nice safe
updraft.

If things get worse you may be plastered on the mountain before you can
turn around.

Wrong. You fly on the downwind side, also known as the updraft side.
If you lose your engine and you are in a downdraft just how smart is
that? You don't knowingly fly in downdrafts, unless of course you want
to go down.

I guess we'll agree to differ.
I live in the mountains.
All of my flying is in the mountains.
I did my mountain flying training with some of the best.
I'll do it exactly the way I explained in my last post.

And I will admit that what you are describing is the way that most 300
hour flight instructors in the USA are taught to teach it. But I did my
mountain flying training with two Alaska bush pilots who are two of the
best. And they taught me consistently, never fly on the more favourable
side - because you have nowhere to go if you need to turn. You should
ALWAYS be able to turn into lift when flying canyons.

That's fine. This group is all about difference of opinion and debate -
that's how we learn. This time, we just happen to be on different sides
of the question

Tony


Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-77BFC6.20093724042005@shawnews...
Wrong. You fly on the downwind side, also known as the updraft side.
If you lose your engine and you are in a downdraft just how smart is
that? You don't knowingly fly in downdrafts, unless of course you want
to go down.

I guess we'll agree to differ.
I live in the mountains.
All of my flying is in the mountains.
I did my mountain flying training with some of the best.
I'll do it exactly the way I explained in my last post.

And I will admit that what you are describing is the way that most 300
hour flight instructors in the USA are taught to teach it. But I did my
mountain flying training with two Alaska bush pilots who are two of the
best. And they taught me consistently, never fly on the more favourable
side - because you have nowhere to go if you need to turn. You should
ALWAYS be able to turn into lift when flying canyons.

That's fine. This group is all about difference of opinion and debate -
that's how we learn. This time, we just happen to be on different sides
of the question

Tony


Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

How did you determine that these two pilots are "two of the best"? There
are hundreds if not thousands of bush pilots in AK all of whom think that
they are among the best. The only ones who don't think this are certain
that they are "the" very best.

In the case you are describing, flying on the upwind side, you are vastly
more likely to fly into the other side of the canyon because you will be
turning downwind, increasing the turn radius dramatically. Sure, there are
situations where starting on the upwind side might be better but saying that
the upwind side is *always* better is nuts. In fact, nearly every bush
pilot and mountain flying instructor flys on the downwind side.

Mike
MU-2, ATP
Helio Courier, Student Pilot

Newps wrote:
tony roberts wrote:



You don't fly down the middle, because that may not leave you
enough
space to do a 180 either way

Right.


You don't fly on the updraft side - even though that initially
seems the
safest - because if things change and you need to do a 180, you now
have
to turn into the downdraft - which you may not be able to recover
from.

Wrong. You fly on the downwind side, also known as the updraft side.

If you lose your engine and you are in a downdraft just how smart is
that? You don't knowingly fly in downdrafts, unless of course you
want
to go down.



So you fly in the downdraft side. If you can handle that you will
get
through. If things get worse, at least your 180 will be into a nice
safe
updraft.

If things get worse you may be plastered on the mountain before you
can
turn around.

I guess I would prefer to fly the updraft side of a canyon, unless it
is a narrow canyon (a narrow canyon is one where the radius of turn
exceeds half the canyon width). Take advantage of the lift.

The radius of turn varies as the square of the true airspeed. Even at
80 knots TAS and limiting yourself to a 35-degree bank, you only
require 811.7 feet for the radius of turn.

tony roberts wrote:

So you fly in the downdraft side. If you can handle that you will get
through.

Depending on the wind situation, you can expect downdrafts of 10 fpm or
even more. No light single will outclimb this, even less at altitude.
It's a key point to fly on the updraft side.

If things get worse, at least your 180 will be into a nice safe
updraft.

There's nothing wrong with turning into a downdraft. Just keep your
speed up and make sure you have always enough air below you.

And before you ask: I've been flying mostly in mountains, too. Mostly in
gliders, the rest in vastly underpowered planes (80 to 100 hp). Learn to
use the weather instead of fighting it.

Stefan