When to acknowledge ATC

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Ron Natalie wrote:
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If you're working in any sort of Class C or D airspace, his
response to you is in fact clearance into that airspace.

No clearance is required.

For Class C airspace, 2-way communication is the clearance into
that airspace. No, ATC doesn't ahve to 'clear' you into it, but the
communication is the clearance as is.

So if he
responds, you can fly through unless ATC tells you 'remain outside
Class x Airspace'. Then you must read back something.

The last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. If I call and he answers,
that's two-way communciation and that's all that's required.

If ATC tells you to remain outside a certain class airspace,
you must read that back and remain outside that airspace until he
clears you into it. Yes, it establishes communication, and normally
that is all that's needed. but ATC's actual notification of 'remain
outside Class x airspace' (where x is B, or C) overrides your clearance
into that airspace. You will need to remain outside that airspace until
told otherwise.

Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it. So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling, establishes 2-way comms, in which
you need to acknowledge that he hears you whether it's a vector he's
given you, or just replying with your callsign, that is all that's
needed. You can reply back with the alt. setting, but it isn't really
necessary.

RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.

Actually, for Class B, it does. AIM 3-2-3.d.2 and 3-2-3.e back that:

3-2-3.e: ATC Clearances and Separation. An ATC clearance is
required to enter and operate within Class B airspace. VFR
pilots are provided sequencing and separation from other
aircraft while operating within Class B airspace.

For Class C, AIM 3-2-4.3 states that 2-way comms must be
established, and that is the clearance into/through Class C. But, if
ATC tells you to remain outside of it, you *MUST* remain outside of it
until told otherwise. Plus, a readback of that would be required.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

If ATC tells you to remain outside a certain class airspace,
you must read that back and remain outside that airspace until he
clears you into it.


If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?



RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.


Actually, for Class B, it does. AIM 3-2-3.d.2 and 3-2-3.e back that:

3-2-3.e: ATC Clearances and Separation. An ATC clearance is
required to enter and operate within Class B airspace. VFR
pilots are provided sequencing and separation from other
aircraft while operating within Class B airspace.

For Class C, AIM 3-2-4.3 states that 2-way comms must be
established, and that is the clearance into/through Class C. But, if
ATC tells you to remain outside of it, you *MUST* remain outside of it
until told otherwise. Plus, a readback of that would be required.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?

but ATC's actual notification of 'remain
outside Class x airspace' (where x is B, or C) overrides your clearance
into that airspace. You will need to remain outside that airspace until
told otherwise.

Wouldn't it also apply to Class D airspace?

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

No clearance is required.


For Class C airspace, 2-way communication is the clearance into
that airspace. No, ATC doesn't ahve to 'clear' you into it, but the
communication is the clearance as is.

No clearance is required. Do you know what CLEARANCE means?

If ATC tells you to remain outside a certain class airspace,
you must read that back

I don't have to read back anything.

and remain outside that airspace until he
clears you into it

You will not EVER get a VFR clearance into class C or D airspace.

RADAR CONTACT is not required. Altimeter setting is not required.
Readback is not required. You know he hears you because he responded
to your radio call with your call sign. I'm having a hard time
following your argument.
Actually, for Class B, it does. AIM 3-2-3.d.2 and 3-2-3.e back that:

3-2-3.e: ATC Clearances and Separation. An ATC clearance is
required to enter and operate within Class B airspace. VFR
pilots are provided sequencing and separation from other
aircraft while operating within Class B airspace.

What on earth does that passage have to do with anything? Radar
contact is NOT required, Altimeter settings are not required, Readbacks
are not required. A clearance is required.

For Class C, AIM 3-2-4.3 states that 2-way comms must be
established, and that is the clearance into/through Class C. But, if
ATC tells you to remain outside of it, you *MUST* remain outside of it
until told otherwise. Plus, a readback of that would be required.

It says nothing about clearances. You're making things up again.

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

It's a bit more than that.

If you're working in any sort of Class C or D airspace, his
response to you is in fact clearance into that airspace.


A clearance is not required for VFR operations in Class D or Class C
airspace. If you're operating IFR you had a clearance into that airspace
prior to your call.



So if he
responds, you can fly through unless ATC tells you 'remain outside
Class x Airspace'. Then you must read back something.


You can enter if he responds with your identification. If he doesn't you
have to remain outside, but you don't have to read anything back.



Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it.


Class B airspace requires a clearance to enter, the clearance does not have
to be "Cleared into Class B airspace". If you're on an IFR clearance that
penetrates Class B airspace you're good to go. If you're VFR but have been
cleared for a practice approach that requires entry of Class B airspace
you're good to go.



So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling, establishes 2-way comms, in which
you need to acknowledge that he hears you whether it's a vector he's
given you, or just replying with your callsign, that is all that's
needed.


Say what? You might want to clean that sentence up a bit.

Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it. So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling

No. As you said, Class B airspace requires ATC to tell you you are
cleared into it. You need to hear "Cleared through the Bravo airspace"
or somesuch.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it. So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling


No. As you said, Class B airspace requires ATC to tell you you are
cleared into it. You need to hear "Cleared through the Bravo airspace"
or somesuch.

Nope, you just have to have a clearance. "Cleared into/through the
[NAME] Class Bravo" is just one form of it (and the safest for VFR's).

Class B airspace
requires ATC to tell you that you are cleared into it. So if ATC tells
you 'radar contact location, altimeter xx.xx', you're cleared through
that space where he's controlling



No. As you said, Class B airspace requires ATC to tell you you are cleared into it. You need to hear "Cleared through the Bravo airspace" or somesuch.

Nope, you just have to have a clearance. "Cleared into/through the
[NAME] Class Bravo" is just one form of it (and the safest for VFR's).

I stand corrected (but I will still ask for the magic words rather than
risk coming to the attention of the FAA!)

In any case, "radar contact location, altimiter xx.xx" is not a clearance.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

No. As you said, Class B airspace requires ATC to tell you you are
cleared into it. You need to hear "Cleared through the Bravo airspace"
or somesuch.

The last clearance I got from New York ran something like "November 3162 Kebec,
climb to 2500 feet, heading 355, stay west of the river, report at the Hudson
tunnel."

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"George Patterson"
Jose wrote:

No. As you said, Class B airspace requires ATC to tell you you are
cleared into it. You need to hear "Cleared through the Bravo airspace"
or somesuch.

The last clearance I got from New York ran something like "November 3162
Kebec, climb to 2500 feet, heading 355, stay west of the river, report at
the Hudson tunnel."

Ask for the clearance. You're in violation without it. ATC should know
better.

moo