Logging Right Seat Time

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote:

I have seen a written interpretation by the Chief Counsel
stating that the only pilot on board can log PIC time when
allowing other non-pilots to manipulate the controls. The
reasoning given was that the only pilot on board was the
PIC, followed by some handwaving and references to
definitions in the FARs.

I've never heard of this, and don't see it in my copy of Jeppesen's "FARs
Explained". Do you have the reference?

In article ,
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

I posted the answer in this thread. It's because the Chief
Counsel's Office of the FAA has issued a written
interpretation saying it's OK. The reasoning is suspect,
but since it's an answer I want, and since the Chief
Counsel's opinion is right until it's overturned, I'll
follow it.

Could you please post a reference so the rest of us can do likewise?

rg

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
I looked through my electronic files, but I haven't found it
yet. I would have posted it if I had. The Chief Counsel's
Office has a searchable database of interpretations, but
only the FAA is allowed to use it. We had a retired FAA
official here who snarfed a copy and he posted the interp
about 2 years ago. Otherwise we wouldn't know about it,
unless the original paper letter recipient posted it.

I have no reason to doubt the existence of that letter, but I've long since
decided that I refuse to consider myself bound by "interpretations" that
actually blatantly contradict the FARs, and that are unavailable except as
Internet rumors. If I ever have to defend that stance in court, so be it.
(In this case, of course, the unpublished "interpretation" is actually more
*lenient* than what the FARs actually say.)

--Gary

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote
You won't find it in Jeppesen. It's not an FAR. It's an
official interpretation of the FARs, and is binding on the
FAA.

Here's one interpretation


June 22, 1977


Mr. Thomas Beane


Dear Mr. Beane:


This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight
Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging
of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the
sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in
Command as:


Pilot in command means the person who:


(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and
safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command
before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category,
class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.


Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in
pertinent part:


(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.


(I) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time
only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole
occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts


as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the
flight is conducted


..

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I)
when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one
on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or
under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is
acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g.
airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority
and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC
time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually
manipulating the controls of the aircraft.


It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the
same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may
log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is
designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with
(c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving
flight instruction.


We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the
proper logging of PIC time.


Sincerely,


ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN


for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations &
Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel
-

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote
I looked through my electronic files, but I haven't found it
yet. I would have posted it if I had. The Chief Counsel's
Office has a searchable database of interpretations, but
only the FAA is allowed to use it. We had a retired FAA
official here who snarfed a copy and he posted the interp
about 2 years ago. Otherwise we wouldn't know about it,
unless the original paper letter recipient posted it.

I typed the following into the "Google Groups" search engine:
"Chief Counsel logging pilot time" and came up with about 250
hits. I really think that all of our "logging" questions have
been thoroughly answered in the past.

Bob Moore

"CloudyIFR" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm a Part 135 pilot and we're starting to get a lot of missions that
are two pilot crews. These are in airplanes that don't require a SIC
as the AutoPilots work, we're not flying over 8 hours and it's not
required by the Type certificate.

I'm a Captain in all the planes but move to the right seat often. When
I'm in the right seat what can I log? From my reading of the FAR's I
can only log Total Time. Is that correct? I can't log PIC as I'm not
the PIC nor sole manipulator of the controls. Can I log landings,
Instrument, X/C, etc..?

Maybe this doesn't apply exactly to your case, but I wanted to set up
another related discussion.
I was very confused, but then I figured out that the trick is realizing that
acting an PIC and logging PIC time is completely different (as weird as it
sounds).

Case 1: I am PIC, manipulator of controls and I log PIC time (the usual
case)
Case 2: A friend who is rated in an airplane, but is not current, takes over
the controls. He cannot be the PIC because he is not current, but he logs
PIC time because he is sole manipulator and he's rated for the airplane. I
am legally the PIC, but I'm not logging PIC time.
Case 3: I am safety pilot. I log PIC because I am required pilot (PIC) by
the regulation by which the flight is conducted. The manipulator of the
controls logs PIC because he is manipulating the controls.

Now, another question: Is there any regulation that requires that the
manipulator of the controls has to be rated in the aircraft and current? I
mean, is it illegal (if I'm not an instructor) to let a non-rated friend fly
the airplane. I've never found anything that says that is illegal. As long
as you are safe and you don't break the recklessness rules.

Does all this sound right?


guillermo

I've never heard of this, and don't see it in my copy of Jeppesen's
"FARs Explained". Do you have the reference?

You won't find it in Jeppesen. It's not an FAR. It's an
official interpretation of the FARs, and is binding on the
FAA.

The Jepp "FARs Explained" book combines the text of the FARs with explanations
by aviation attorneys and excerpts from relevant decisions by the FAA Chief
Counsel and NTSB. I've found it a useful book to have. It has several pages
on logging issues, but I found nothing on this scenario of logging PIC time
while allowing a non-pilot to manipulate the controls.

Barry

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Ron Garret wrote:


the Chief
Counsel's Office of the FAA has issued a written
interpretation saying it's OK. The reasoning is suspect,
but since it's an answer I want, and since the Chief
Counsel's opinion is right until it's overturned, I'll
follow it.

Could you please post a reference so the rest of us can do likewise?


I understand why you want the reference, but I don't have
it. I did spend 20 minutes looking in my saved
interpretations and old messages, and the closest I found
was a message I sent in rec.aviation.ifr responding to a
message from Ron Natalie on 27 Sep 2002 which was after I
had seen the interpretation. It was likely posted in
rec.aviation.ifr or .pilot or .student, and it must have
been before that date. There should be someone here who
recalls that period and saved a copy of the interpretation.
I suspect a computer crash prior to 2002 wiped out my copy.
If it helps anyone, here's the message I sent in 2002:

From a Feb 5 2002 post by Rick Cremer:

Rick Cremer Feb 5 2002, 6:31 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: "Rick Cremer" - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:30:46 -0500
Local: Tues,Feb 5 2002 6:30 pm
Subject: PP-ASEL logging PIC when flying with student
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse



I thought you had an interp on this point already?


I do. And I had to dig deep for it. it's an oldie and I don't know if would
stand up to the test of time with all the regulatory changes we've had since
1977 but I think it would. Here 'tis

Best


------------------------------*------------------------------*-----------------
------------------------------*---------------
June 22, 1977


Mr. Thomas Beane


Dear Mr. Beane:


This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight Standards
Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging of
pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the sole
manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in Command as:


Pilot in command means the person who:


(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of
the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate,
for the conduct of the flight.


Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in
pertinent part:


(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.


(i) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only
that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of
an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the
aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more
than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or
the regulations under which the flight is conducted.


A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(i) when he is
not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than
one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations
under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot,
rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot
who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of
the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was
actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.


It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the same
flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may log PIC time
in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(i) for the time he is designated PIC, and
another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with (c)(2)(iii) for the same
time during which he is actually giving flight instruction.


We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the proper
logging of PIC time.


Sincerely,


ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN


for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement
Division Office of the Chief Counsel





--
David Rind

"Guillermo" wrote in message
...
"CloudyIFR" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm a Part 135 pilot and we're starting to get a lot of missions that
are two pilot crews. These are in airplanes that don't require a SIC
as the AutoPilots work, we're not flying over 8 hours and it's not
required by the Type certificate.

I'm a Captain in all the planes but move to the right seat often. When
I'm in the right seat what can I log? From my reading of the FAR's I
can only log Total Time. Is that correct? I can't log PIC as I'm not
the PIC nor sole manipulator of the controls. Can I log landings,
Instrument, X/C, etc..?

Maybe this doesn't apply exactly to your case, but I wanted to set up
another related discussion.
I was very confused, but then I figured out that the trick is realizing
that
acting an PIC and logging PIC time is completely different (as weird as it
sounds).

Case 1: I am PIC, manipulator of controls and I log PIC time (the usual
case)
Case 2: A friend who is rated in an airplane, but is not current, takes
over
the controls. He cannot be the PIC because he is not current, but he logs
PIC time because he is sole manipulator and he's rated for the airplane. I
am legally the PIC, but I'm not logging PIC time.
Case 3: I am safety pilot. I log PIC because I am required pilot (PIC) by
the regulation by which the flight is conducted. The manipulator of the
controls logs PIC because he is manipulating the controls.

Now, another question: Is there any regulation that requires that the
manipulator of the controls has to be rated in the aircraft and current? I
mean, is it illegal (if I'm not an instructor) to let a non-rated friend
fly
the airplane. I've never found anything that says that is illegal. As long
as you are safe and you don't break the recklessness rules.

Does all this sound right?

In number 3 you and the other pilot need to decide who is PIC. I log "safety
pilot" time in my book but not PIC. If an enforcement action is brought
against the flight the PIC is responsible. My partner and I usually have the
person under the hood as PIC.

Howard



guillermo

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
.. .


In number 3 you and the other pilot need to decide who is PIC. I log
"safety
pilot" time in my book but not PIC. If an enforcement action is brought
against the flight the PIC is responsible. My partner and I usually have
the
person under the hood as PIC.

Howard

As a strictly VFR pilot at this point, I'm just curious about this:

When I hear other planes asking various valley ATC facilities to (don't
really know the right term...) "allow" them to practice approaches to
airports around the Phoenix area, the words "radar services not available,
maintain VFR" are often the last words out of the controllers mouth.

Given that the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight,
how (if the person under the hood is the PIC) does this flight legally
maintain Visual Flight Rules when the PIC does not have any Visual?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ