"normal" procedure for pop-up filing

Roy Smith wrote:
wrote:

: Why don't more people use flight following?



The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that
you're likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.
I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without
flight following right over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500
or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get
vectored further out.


There's two sides to this.

One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
happy way.

The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
turbulence of one feels like.

Yes. I've gone over the top of Chicago twice on the way to OSH. You know you
can't get an IFR routing anywhere near there, so I crossed the CBAS at 10500
VFR. I was happy to have advisories as the aluminum concentration was high. The
controller seemed to be glad I was talking and squawking, too. He did give me a
couple of zigzags, but that's better than going way out over Lake Michigan or 50
miles to the west.

: One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
: any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
: exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
: really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
: following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
: happy way.

That's true, but it amounts to the same thing as not calling them for
advisories in the first place. Often, you may have deviated a fair bit before you
cancel.... perhaps *into* controlled airspace and then you'd be stuck.

: The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
: Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
: you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
: it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
: heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
: hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
: turbulence of one feels like.

That would be fine, if it were a heading or route for actual traffic. More
often than not, it's a "friend-vector" that takes you completely to the side of the
airspace. I don't even have a moving-map GPS and I can watch the "circle-of-vectors"
form.

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

There's two sides to this.

One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception).


The Outer Area associated with Class C airspace areas and TRSAs.

I've done more than my share of popping up over the years (ATC seems easier
to get along with west of the Mississippi) and I can't remember ever being
vectored in Class E airspace. Not that my memory is perfect, but it seems to
me that if it was a regular occurence I would remember it.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
: Why don't more people use flight following?

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're
likely to
get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace. I've got a friend
with a turbo
Arrow that flies along VFR without flight following right over the top of
Class C and
Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing,
that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if
you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get vectored further out.

It's unfortunate, since it discourages people who enjoy the freedom of VFR
from getting additional safety of traffic advisories and being "in the
system."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

ATC is pretty easy to get along with down in the SE US too. Lack of
congestion is the key I'm guessing.

The only Class E vectoring I can remember ever getting was related to
bypassing Class B & C. Specifically attempts to vector you even if high
or low enough to avoid the B/C.

The big 'depend' is individual facilities' practices with regard to
transitions thru their airspace. Charlotte used to routinely send you
around. Now they seemed to have worked out thru transitions.
Greensboro treats their Class C like sacred air and won't even let you
nip the corners when transitioning. Raleigh almost always accomodates
thru transitons. Heck, Washington DC used to be pretty flexible and
accomodating before 9/11 (Maule, give me 10 degrees left to miss Bill's
house). Stuff varies.

Bob Gardner wrote:
I've done more than my share of popping up over the years (ATC seems easier
to get along with west of the Mississippi) and I can't remember ever being
vectored in Class E airspace. Not that my memory is perfect, but it seems to
me that if it was a regular occurence I would remember it.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...

: Why don't more people use flight following?

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're
likely to
get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace. I've got a friend
with a turbo
Arrow that flies along VFR without flight following right over the top of
Class C and
Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing,
that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if
you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get vectored further out.

It's unfortunate, since it discourages people who enjoy the freedom of VFR
from getting additional safety of traffic advisories and being "in the
system."

-Cory

--

************************************************ *************************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************ *************************

wrote in message
...

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're
likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.


I assume you mean clear of Class C or Class B airspace when you say "clear
of controlled airspace". To actually be clear of controlled airspace you'd
have to be in Class G airspace.



I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without flight
following right
over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to
call up
approach while doing, that, seems like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector
you 10-20
miles out of the way. Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace...
likely to get
vectored further out.


ATC shouldn't vector him over or under Class B airspace, but it's proper to
do so if need be with Class C airspace. Class C services are provided in
Class C airspace proper and also within the Outer Area.

"Though not requiring regulatory action, Class C airspace areas have a
procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C
airspace airport. Its vertical limit extends from the lower limits of
radio/radar coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated
airspace, excluding the Class C airspace itself, and other airspace as
appropriate. (This outer area is not charted.)"

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

"paul kgyy" wrote:
I was taught that, if I needed to file an IFR flight plan in the
middle
of a trip, I should contact FSS first to file and get clearance, then
contact ATC. On the other hand, I hear frequent references in
rec.aviation to pilots who just contact ATC directly. Does this
depend
on how busy ATC is ...?

Yes.

It also depends on what segment of the trip you are flying. If I decide
I need an in flight clearance near the beginning of a long trip, I'll
call FSS. If I'm in or near the airspace of the ATC facility
controlling my destination's approaches, I'll get a pop-up, frequency
congestion permitting.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Lots of good answers, especially regarding how easy it is to get a pop-up if
you already have flight following. I'll just add one more item - fly a route
you could fly IFR with the equipment you've got. For example, while my
handheld GPS can take me direct anywhere VFR - I'm screwed if I need an IFR
pop-up and I'm not on an airway in my VOR only equiped plane (/U). So I
pretty much always follow airways - just on the off chance I need to
"convert" my flight following to an IFR clearance.

-Brenor

Just to add my $0.02: If I'm already getting FF and I suggest to the
controller that I want to go off frequency to talk to FSS to file IFR,
s/he always seems to say, "nah, we'll do it right here."

I always thought it was the reverse psychology in action. I've spent
too much time with sales people.

-- dave j
-- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

"Cleared present position direct...." has been my experience with popping
up. Of course, I was at an altitude where radar could see me. In my
experience, being on an airway offers no special advantage.

Bob Gardner

"Brenor Brophy" wrote in message
...
Lots of good answers, especially regarding how easy it is to get a pop-up
if you already have flight following. I'll just add one more item - fly a
route you could fly IFR with the equipment you've got. For example, while
my handheld GPS can take me direct anywhere VFR - I'm screwed if I need an
IFR pop-up and I'm not on an airway in my VOR only equiped plane (/U). So
I pretty much always follow airways - just on the off chance I need to
"convert" my flight following to an IFR clearance.

-Brenor