Stupid Newbie Pattern Question

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
.. .

Point well taken on student pilots Dave. Student pilots should get the
extra consideration for the learning curve. After all, we all have been
there. My original post only considered pilots, not students.

Even if the student does not know which way would be NW from the airport,
they still should have a conception of 5 miles out as I posted originally.


A student pilot that doesn't know which way NW is not ready to solo.

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...

The "final" leg at uncontrolled airports is where most air-air
collisions and near misses occur.


What is your evidence of that?



You have potentially converging
traffic at the same altitude banking, turning and doing GUMPs checks
all in a very confined space.My strong recommendation is to avoid
straight in approaches at uncontrolled airports. it can be hard to see
the guy turning from base to final who is flying a normal pattern and
he is not too likely to see you.


Why can it be hard to see the guy turning from base to final who is flying a
normal pattern and why is he not too likely to see you?



It may be legal to do straight ins...but it isn't prudent.


Why not? What's the difference between a five-mile final on a straight-in
approach and a five-mile final out of a full pattern if others in the
pattern aren't looking for traffic to the outside?

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I bought my handheld radio the day after I turned final to see myself
on collision course with a twin flying straight in at Hampton NH. (I
turned 90 degrees for a bit, then followed him in.)

I hadn't seen him, he hadn't seen me. Afterward he said: "Don't you
have a radio in that thing?" (It was a J-3 Cub.)

He was an instructor! He had a student flying the plane! It was his
first-ever visit to this grass field which is flagged "intensive
flight training"!

As you say: legal but not prudent. Indeed, I would call it stupid.


Which of you made the most errors?

With this in mind, I personally include VFR references in my approach into
Madison, MS (MBO). When I practice approaches, I will say:

Madison, Sundowner 12345L 5 miles NW, inbound VOR Alpha Madison. This
tells all pilots my position relative to the airport, as well as tell any
IFR traffic what my intentions are. If any pilot doesn't know where 5
miles NW is, then I would question their navigation abilities.


I question the ability of many pilots to estimate distance. One pilot's 5
mile report is another pilot's 10 mile report.

In the pre-GPS days, this was absolutely true. Nowadays, however, we
must contend with the other end of the spectrum -- you know, the guy
who reports his distance from the airport accurate to three decimal
places...

Estimation is no longer required. Rounding is encouraged.

;-)

Now DIRECTION from the airport is another thing entirely. Just looking
at your distance readout doesn't tell you your position relative to the
airport, and this is where a lot of guys screw up, IMHO.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...

In the pre-GPS days, this was absolutely true. Nowadays, however, we
must contend with the other end of the spectrum -- you know, the guy
who reports his distance from the airport accurate to three decimal
places...


When someone reports "X miles northwest" you don't know if the distance is a
SWAG or derived from GPS so it's still suspect.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I agree with this "somewhat" as you need to remember, the student needs to
learn the radio calls as well. So, any practice lessons with an IFR
student should include IFR jargon as you state in his radio calls.

With this in mind, I personally include VFR references in my approach into
Madison, MS (MBO). When I practice approaches, I will say:

Madison, Sundowner 12345L 5 miles NW, inbound VOR Alpha Madison. This
tells all pilots my position relative to the airport, as well as tell any
IFR traffic what my intentions are. If any pilot doesn't know where 5
miles NW is, then I would question their navigation abilities.



I question the ability of many pilots to estimate distance. One pilot's 5
mile report is another pilot's 10 mile report. I'll trust a position over a
charted fix or landmark or a DME distance, anything else I assume to be a
SWAG.

Yes, I often make a guess before checking the GPS when I see an airport
and I find it hard to be within even 20% in many cases. The altitude
you are are, the terrain around the airport, etc. all seen to contribute
to estimation error.


Matt

Jay Honeck wrote:

Now DIRECTION from the airport is another thing entirely. Just looking
at your distance readout doesn't tell you your position relative to the
airport, and this is where a lot of guys screw up, IMHO.

Yep, and a lot of pilots round off the compass directions entirely too much.
They seem to know only the cardinal directions -- anything from 315 degrees to
45 degrees is "north", for example.

There's a controller who worked Norfolk approach a few years ago who's really
picky about that sort of thing. If you're in a position to listen to him, you
can hear him put on a sour tone when someone reports his position as north of
the airport and radar shows him to be NNE. Said pilot will be corrected. You can
also hear the note of astonishment when someone reports a position of SSE and
radar shows him to actually be there.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

Which tells non-IFR pilots almost nothing.

mike

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news:H8ome.9858


"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME-FINAL APPROACH
FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY
THREE FIVE STRAWN"

If you do these, just make sure there isn't a little parachute next to the
airport symbol on the sectional. If there is, and there could be jump
activity, you should fly just on the actual track of the pattern. Never
cross the field-at any altitude.

mike

"ls" wrote in message
news
if the pattern is on the
other side of the runway, crossing over midfield and joining the downwind
there.

LS
N646F

Can you show me the reg which specifies that the pattern can be five miles
from the airport?

And if some guy is at pattern altitude five miles from the airport, I hope
his engine doesn't quit.

mike

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
newsFZme.11120

Well, there are those that do fly patterns with a five mile final. If
right-of-way is an issue, they have it. Be sure to yield to them.