Engine over TBO at purchase

I would much rather buy an aircraft with a TBO engine than one with 0
hours. It amazes me when you see ads for aircraft with just a couple
hours on the engine. I just can't see trusting the overhaul of an owner
who does the overhaul just to sell the plane. There are a ***LOT*** of
corners you can cut when you overhaul an engine. Give me the plane
pre-overhaul and let me have it overhauled myself.

-Robert, CFI


DHead wrote:
Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?
Thanks in advance.

Gary
Future pilot without a plane

When you do your Vref it will automatically account for the engine time
in the price evaluation.

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.

Opinions vary,
Mike


Newps wrote:


Mike Spera wrote:

Ah Bull****.



If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.


$400 for a new one.


alternator O/H,

$300.


starter O/H,

$250.


fuel and oil hoses,

$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.


scat

tubing,


Hardly anything.

Mike Spera wrote:

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.



Yes, restorations cost a lot more.

"Mike Spera" wrote in message
nk.net...

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.

Opinions vary,
Mike


Q - What is the definition of an architect's estimate?
A - The cost of construction in heaven.

The question is not how much will it cost to fix, but how much to fix
properly.
Sellers and buyers will never agree on this one.

I think the best advice is to never fall in love until after the deal and to
recognize that as a new and inexperienced buyer you need to consider and
reject a lot of possibilities and treat them as learning experience and
evaluation practice so that you will recognize the right deal (and a
motivated seller). Just learning to read and evaluate log books is not
something you can do properly unless you have seriously looked at lots of
them. I would suggest that any prospective purchaser do a serious
evaluation of every set of log books possible and not just for the aircraft
types that you are seriously considering.

When you do find the right aircraft.
Never underestimate the power of the offer, sellers see lots of lookers but
few real buyers and even a lowball offer may be the only one they get and
they may be a lot more motivated than they will admit.

The bottom line is that in any buy / sell negotiation, when the buyer says
no he keeps his money, and when sellers say no they keep their (continuing)
expenses. Book? prices are fine in a liquid market of similar commodities
but in a limited market there are seldom as many buyers as are required to
ensure liquidity, and a seller may have to wait a long time.

Remember that the price you pay for an aircraft is just the down payment on
the maintenance.

Happy landings

Ok, here's the deal:

2035 TT A&E - Sundowner, had to be from the 1970's so it is at least 25
years old, if not 30+.

Engines have two TBO's. The hours we are all familiar with and a
calendar time, which for the Lycomings ( all Sundowners are O320 or O360
powered ) is 12 years or 2000 hours.

You may, as a part 91 operator, exceed TBO, as it is only a recommended
number, not a mandatory life limit.

But your Sundowner is a runout by hours and years.

The 4k thing isn't relevant. If I were selling the plane, I wouldn't buy
you a new overhaul either. On the other hand, I'd be realistic about the
actual market value of the aircraft considering its condition.

There are two evaluators you should consider: AOPA's VRef and
Trade-a-plane's evaluator. The TAP is a little better if you are a
buyer. AOPA's is better for owner's buying insurance or trying to sell.

Sundowners can be hard to sell, a friend of mine had a tough time
selling his.

So how much is this plane worth to YOU?

So here's what you need to consider in your decision: How much is this
plane worth to you? Consider that it is likely to need an engine
overhaul soon, perhaps right away. I just went through that process on
the plane I bought last summer. Checked it out nine ways to sunday, and
it spit up a bearing 50 hours later. So stuff happens. It was not quite
a run-out, but it was priced according to its hours.

Overhauls are expensive. You'll also find a whole lot of other piddly
crap to fix while the engine is off, like the mount, the Lord mounts,
the exhaust, the oil cooler, the hoses, alternator, a few wires, a
cracked baffle or two, new baffle seals, a new vacuum pump...

A carb'd O360 with new cylinders will cost you about $15k altogether,
just for the motor in a first class shop. Then you got labor to put it
back on, and all the above mentioned stuff. Overhauling an exhaust with
4 stacks and mufflers and shrouds will cost you about $800, mount
overhaul will run about $1k, 4 new lord mounts are about $300. New
mixture and throttle cables will run you about $500 a baffle or two will
probably be cracked and need replacing with a new "famous Beech quality"
part from Raytheon.

Ask me how I know all of this...

Depending on how committed you are after the process (ie, how much money
you spend), you'll have a nice shiny new reliable motor in your plane
and a bunch of shiny new reliable parts to go with it.

So what you do is figure out how much you want to put into this deal and
work from there. If you want a plane to keep for a while, then shop for
an overhaul with all the trimmings, subtract that from what you think
the plane is worth with 0-smoh, offer that much to the owner, see if you
get anywhere. Keep in mind that every plane worth having, someone has
probably put more than it is worth into it.

If you are looking for a time-builder, shop for an ugly-duckling with a
low-time, good running motor and sufficient avionics to get your IFR and
commercial in and a few hundred hours of x-country time and no further
investment beyond maintenance.

My advice, since you are a student, is just to rent until you get your
private pilot license. Owning is a hobby all of its own and a burden you
probably don't want distracting you from training while you are trying
to finish off your initial training.

In article ,
"DHead" wrote:

Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?
Thanks in advance.

Gary
Future pilot without a plane