LSA instructor?

Hee Hee,
I know where you are coming from. Well as most people know, a sport pilot
may train in pretty much any single engine aircraft if it meets the category
or not. But solos and the check ride must be done in a "sport" category
aircraft.
When you get down into all the little sub sections of the rules it goes
on to say that only a certificated sport pilot can get training and get
signed off for the 87 knot endorsement. So you have one rule saying you can
fly a Cherokee and the other rule saying you can't until you are already a
sport pilot.
The EAA says they are working on the wording as it has caused some
confusion. One of those that was very confused is the AOPA (did not have a
clue). And the FAA fellow told me," Welcome to the FAR's!"
From all I have heard from the powers that be it is supposed to be where
you can get the endorsement during your training, just like a taildragger or
controlled airspace endorsement. Just the wording got "messed" up.
So for now, some CFI's are giving the endorsement as it was intended by
the rules, and some are afraid to by the conflict of the term certificated
sport pilot. AHHH Red tape ya just gotta love it!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...
Yep and the same for the 87 knot endorsement rule Jim

Refresh my memory, please. I have slept several times since that came up.
;-)
--
Jim in NC

"W P Dixon" wrote

When you get down into all the little sub sections of the rules it
goes
on to say that only a certificated sport pilot can get training and get
signed off for the 87 knot endorsement.

Sorry, but you still didn't say what the 87 knot endorsement rule is.
--
Jim in NC

OK,
To sum it up,....before a sport pilot can operate a fixed wing aircraft
that cruises 87 knots or more he must have ground and flight training and
recieve an endorsement. The rule regarding this endorsement specifically
states a certificated sport pilot can get this endorsement.
So you have one rule saying a sport pilot can train in the same aircraft
that the other rule says he can't until after he is a "sport pilot". It's
causing as much confusion as the retracts on seaplanes, if not more just
because alot of us(me included) have already been flying aircraft that
cruise at or more than 87 knots. Some CFI's are giving the endorsement
during training , others just are not sure what the heck to do.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"W P Dixon" wrote

When you get down into all the little sub sections of the rules it
goes
on to say that only a certificated sport pilot can get training and get
signed off for the 87 knot endorsement.

Sorry, but you still didn't say what the 87 knot endorsement rule is.
--
Jim in NC

"If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-

The wording right there is what is the holdup, see the sport pilot
certificate, that means someone who already is a sport pilot , not a
student. A student would be seeking to obtain a sport pilot certificate, or
it should say a student sport pilot. But using the words sport pilot
certificate does not include students, or so say half the FAA and AOPA.
It's kind of like saying you could not fly a C150 unless you had a
private pilot certificate,...no mention of a student pilot there. It's weird
wording for sure.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
"W P Dixon" wrote:

To sum it up,....before a sport pilot can operate a fixed wing aircraft
that cruises 87 knots or more he must have ground and flight training and
recieve an endorsement.

True.

The rule regarding this endorsement specifically
states a certificated sport pilot can get this endorsement.

True, but it does *not* say a student pilot cannot get it.
It says nothing about when it can be given or to whom.

The exact wording of 61.327 is:
"If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-
(a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in an aircraft that has a VH greater
than 87 knots CAS"

FAR 61.315 on SP privileges, just says that in order for a
certificated SP to exercise the privilege of flying a
light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS
he must first have the 61.327 endorsement. This applies to
certificated sport pilots only. It certainly does not
prohibit the endorsement from being given to a student
pilot. The student must always have the make and model
signoffs to solo. I haven't given the 87 knot signoff, but
I'd have no problem giving it to a student pilot if I
thought he was qualified.

So you have one rule saying a sport pilot can train in the same
aircraft
that the other rule says he can't until after he is a "sport pilot".

No you don't. There's nothing in either rule saying a
student pilot can't get the endorsement. For that matter, I
don't see anything saying he has to have the signoff to
train or solo in a 87 knots SLA (although I'd recommend it
before solo and certainly before the practical test
signoff.).

It's
causing as much confusion as the retracts on seaplanes, if not more just
because alot of us(me included) have already been flying aircraft that
cruise at or more than 87 knots.

Where is the confusion coming from? Can you point me to
it?. I frequent some Sport Pilot groups and haven't seen
it discussed (although I might have missed it).


Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.

(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

"W P Dixon" wrote in
:

"If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-

The wording right there is what is the holdup, see the sport pilot
certificate, that means someone who already is a sport pilot , not a
student. A student would be seeking to obtain a sport pilot
certificate, or it should say a student sport pilot. But using the
words sport pilot certificate does not include students, or so say
half the FAA and AOPA.
It's kind of like saying you could not fly a C150 unless you had a
private pilot certificate,...no mention of a student pilot there. It's
weird wording for sure.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


Break it apart: "If you hold a sport pilot certificate" ok, student
does not, therefore don't read anymore.

Now once you have the certificate: "If you hold a sport pilot
certificate" Yes; "and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-
(a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in an aircraft that has a VH greater
than 87 knots CAS"

OK, you did that as a student, so your golden... It doesn't say WHEN
you had to have it done, it simply says you have to DO that before
flying an aircraft w/ VH greater than 87 knots.

Sounds simple to me....

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Hee Hee,
Well it does to alot of folks, but guess what the FAA doesn't see it as
so simple, nor the AOPA. And thus the problem. Like the FAA told me, welcome
to the FAR's. Some people interpret it one way and others another way and
some don't even get it close. But with half the CFI's and DPE's confused on
the matter they are waiting on word from the higher authority. And the
higher authority themselves are confused! See the dilemma. What you or I
think doesn't matter if the person who has to give you the endorsement does
not see it that way, and no one is telling him/her any different.
We see it from pretty much the same side, but there are those who are
seeing it as you CAN NOT fly a plane 87knots or greater until you have a
sport pilot certificate. Some FAA says you can some FAA says you can't. As
long as the FAA doesn't know for sure, then everyone under them is just
guessing as to what the rule means, or at least what the FAA wanted it to
mean.
I think you are exactly right! If you trained in them you are good to
go, but ALOT of CFI's are having a problem with it. The EAA says it was a
wording glitch and CFI's should sign the endorsement and alot do. But for
those that don't "see it that way" , the EAA is not the higher authority,
the FAA is. Guess it's kind of like The Constitution , seems judges and
politicians can change it's meaning from day to day, and twist simple words
around . Pretty much like this rule, just says what whomever is reading it
says it says. And sometimes in either case I don't see how they come up with
the stuff they do!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"ET" wrote in message
...
"W P Dixon" wrote in
:

"If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-

The wording right there is what is the holdup, see the sport pilot
certificate, that means someone who already is a sport pilot , not a
student. A student would be seeking to obtain a sport pilot
certificate, or it should say a student sport pilot. But using the
words sport pilot certificate does not include students, or so say
half the FAA and AOPA.
It's kind of like saying you could not fly a C150 unless you had a
private pilot certificate,...no mention of a student pilot there. It's
weird wording for sure.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


Break it apart: "If you hold a sport pilot certificate" ok, student
does not, therefore don't read anymore.

Now once you have the certificate: "If you hold a sport pilot
certificate" Yes; "and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-
(a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in an aircraft that has a VH greater
than 87 knots CAS"

OK, you did that as a student, so your golden... It doesn't say WHEN
you had to have it done, it simply says you have to DO that before
flying an aircraft w/ VH greater than 87 knots.

Sounds simple to me....

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Todd,
I can't give you any computer links, but the AOPA I called and talked to ,
and the FAA I have called and spoken to as well. These were all personal
conversations, I do not know if those people would like their names on the
net or not, so I won't put their names here. heck I don't think I got the
name of the AOPA rep I spoke to anyway! HAHA As to the FAA, let's just say
reps from an FSDO and in the light sport program. If you get on the phone I
am sure you will get alot of different answers as well.
Since AOPA had to get his FAR and open up the book and read what I was
telling him I was having the problem with I don't think it would be
addressed on their website. After he read the rule he told me you can not
fly the plane until you have a sport pilot certificate. That was his take.
But by all means , I like your common sense approach to it! If you are a CFI
please give me the endorsement so I won't have to fool with it!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
"W P Dixon" wrote:

"If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-

The wording right there is what is the holdup, see the sport pilot
certificate, that means someone who already is a sport pilot , not a
student.

I completely agree. Therefore, since the student does not
hold a sport pilot certificate, this rule does not apply.

A student would be seeking to obtain a sport pilot certificate, or
it should say a student sport pilot. But using the words sport pilot
certificate does not include students

Agreed. So it's irrelevant.

, or so say half the FAA and AOPA.

Can you give me some links? I won't deny that there's a lot
of dispute over the meaning of FAR's but I haven't run into
this dispute. It doesn't seem to me that the language is
any problem, but I'd like to see the comments of someone who
does.

It's kind of like saying you could not fly a C150 unless you had a
private pilot certificate,...no mention of a student pilot there. It's
weird
wording for sure.

It doesn't say that. I'll give you an example for other
signoffs. You can't launch a glider behind a towplane, or
fly a taildragger without a signoff. The rules read as
follows:

"no person may act as pilot in command of a glider .."

and

"no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel
airplane .... "

See the difference? A student pilot who is solo is acting
as PIC. The student must have the signoff. The rule we are
discussing is not written that way, so IMHO, he does not
need the signoff until he gets his license. Of course, I
don't see any prohibition in the existing language from
giving him the signoff, so I see two different ways that
your concern should go away. You don't need it, but if you
think you do, go ahead and get it. You will need it
ultimately, so make sure you get it eventually.





Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
. ..
"W P Dixon" wrote:

To sum it up,....before a sport pilot can operate a fixed wing
aircraft
that cruises 87 knots or more he must have ground and flight training
and
recieve an endorsement.

True.

The rule regarding this endorsement specifically
states a certificated sport pilot can get this endorsement.

True, but it does *not* say a student pilot cannot get it.
It says nothing about when it can be given or to whom.

The exact wording of 61.327 is:
"If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to
operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87
knots CAS you must-
(a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an
authorized instructor in an aircraft that has a VH greater
than 87 knots CAS"

FAR 61.315 on SP privileges, just says that in order for a
certificated SP to exercise the privilege of flying a
light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS
he must first have the 61.327 endorsement. This applies to
certificated sport pilots only. It certainly does not
prohibit the endorsement from being given to a student
pilot. The student must always have the make and model
signoffs to solo. I haven't given the 87 knot signoff, but
I'd have no problem giving it to a student pilot if I
thought he was qualified.

So you have one rule saying a sport pilot can train in the same
aircraft
that the other rule says he can't until after he is a "sport pilot".

No you don't. There's nothing in either rule saying a
student pilot can't get the endorsement. For that matter, I
don't see anything saying he has to have the signoff to
train or solo in a 87 knots SLA (although I'd recommend it
before solo and certainly before the practical test
signoff.).

It's
causing as much confusion as the retracts on seaplanes, if not more just
because alot of us(me included) have already been flying aircraft that
cruise at or more than 87 knots.

Where is the confusion coming from? Can you point me to
it?. I frequent some Sport Pilot groups and haven't seen
it discussed (although I might have missed it).


Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.

(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)


Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.

(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

If you are just a layman, and not a pilot or student pilot, and you go
up with another pilot, you can manipulate the controls. The FARs don't
say you can't, and they don't say the pilot can't let you.

If the other pilot is an appropriate instructor, then you can log those
hours as instruction, no matter what the cruise speed of the aircraft is.

After certain instruction and other requirements are met, you can get
your certificate. To interpret the regs to say that "now that you have
your certificate, you can no longer do what you used to be able to do"
is a bit of a stretch, especially when the alternate interpretation
makes at least equal sense.

I suppose it hinges on what the FAA intends by "fly". It makes sense to
interpret it as "act as PIC". In a vacuum, it also makes sense to
interpret it as "maniuplate the controls". However, if it does not mean
"act as PIC" then getting a certificate would impose a restriction, and
I don't think anybody thinks that's the intent.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Ahhhha!,
See there is the other confusion of the same rule, you said until we fly
in a 87 knot LSA. Well why doesn't a Cherokee count, does it not cruise over
87 knots? Why can't you count flying any aircraft that flies over the 87
knots as one for the endorsement, you can train in one that fast. If you can
fly a Cherokee you can't control a Zenith 601? I didn't see anything in the
rule that says you have to solo the 87knot or over plane , just you needed
training and a endorsement. Since you can train for a sport pilot cert in a
Cherokee and not solo it, why can't you count that time for the endorsement?
And hey, I'd love to go fly with ya! We'd have a blast. If you were anywhere
close I'd come and fly your Champ for sure! I just love that little
airplane! Slipping in for a landing in the Champ is just fun!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
"W P Dixon" wrote:

But by all means , I like your common sense approach to it! If you are a
CFI
please give me the endorsement so I won't have to fool with it!

I'm a CFI, but you don't get the endorsement until we fly
together in a 87 knot LSA. :-)

I'd like to track down the origin of this dispute. I sure
don't see it. I've called OK City (AFS-610) on SP questions
a lot. I'll call and see what they say.

Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.

(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

I agree,
I have never flown a ultralight, so it should not be a problem, but so far
it sure is .

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft stuctural mech

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"W P Dixon" wrote
.
But by all means , I like your common sense approach to it! If you are a
CFI
please give me the endorsement so I won't have to fool with it!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I think I see why this was put in the rule.

It is possible to get a SP certificate, flying only fat ultralights, that
could not do 87 knots in a dive. OK, that is stretching it, but take that
as truth.

The FAA does not want you to get in a fast (88 to 120 knot) Light Sport
Plane, without having a signoff that shows you can fly a faster airplane.

The other stuff, I think Todd has nailed it.
--
Jim in NC