Student Drop-Out Rates...why?

Jose wrote:
But Jay too has "stopped"... albeit at
a different place. The reasons that Jay has for stopping are reasons
that Jay understands, since they are =his= reasons, despite the
arguments I've given for continuing on.

That's ridiculous. It's not stopping at all. By your logic we should
all be driving semis, or have a garage full of cars to meet every
driving need. Moving up to larger planes is not a natural progression.
One trip a year that can't be handled by your current plane doesn't
mean you have stopped.

i think the point is that Jay's ambitions were realized when he became a PP,
he chose not to persue an instrument or other, more advanced, rating. Many
people's ambitions are apparently reached when they solo. Other people get
the PP rating and then quit.

Mike
MU-2



"Newps" wrote in message
...


Jose wrote:
But Jay too has "stopped"... albeit at
a different place. The reasons that Jay has for stopping are reasons
that Jay understands, since they are =his= reasons, despite the arguments
I've given for continuing on.

That's ridiculous. It's not stopping at all. By your logic we should all
be driving semis, or have a garage full of cars to meet every driving
need. Moving up to larger planes is not a natural progression. One trip a
year that can't be handled by your current plane doesn't mean you have
stopped.

That's ridiculous. It's not stopping at all. By your logic we should all be driving semis, or have a garage full of cars to meet every driving need.

Exactly!

So why is it so unfathomable (to Jay) that some people stop before
getting the license to operate an aircraft, which has rather specialized
needs and limited uses compared to a car? The reasons for continuing
(on to a twin) are the same kinds of reasons for continuing past solo.
Their apparant validity depends on perspective, and is not an absolute.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Michael" wrote:
I met an avid scuba diver and business owner who could afford an
airplane, and actually went up with a friend of his on a lesson. The
process of walking around the plane for 10 minutes with a written
checklist, and then spending 5 more minutes in the plane reading a
checklist, was enough to turn him off. I routinely get a twin
preflighted for IFR and launched in less time than that, and they were
just going on a local day-VFR flight in a Cherokee. We need to
understand that if we're going to attract the Harley demographic, that
kind of bull**** is unacceptable.

So this other guy who could afford to fly vetoed learning to fly because
his friend spent 15 minutes assuring their safety as best he could
before they left the ground? How much time does he spend checking his
gear before he scuba dives? what if something doesn't check out just so?
does he spend a few minutes correcting it, or just dive in anyway?

JMO, but I don't consider 15 minutes to do a preflight/cockpit check
"unacceptable bull****".

That's society today -- we've been conditioned, by all the "no wait",
"no lines", now-now-now advertising that the prevailing attitude is that
if you have to wait for *anything*, it's not worth it. That instant
gratification attitude has created a generation of people who get
"turned off" spending 15 minutes of their precious time for the PILOT to
be satisfied that they'll have a safe flight--he must be fun to go on a
commercial flight with! Have him try boating!

JMO, but a person who is too impatient to spend 15 minutes on a
preflight/cockpit check isn't someone I'd be kicking myself for turning
off to flying! Good for you if you can preflight and launch a twin in
less than 15 minutes ... I'm sure not gonna hurry-up my
preflight/cockpit routine just so my non-pilot passenger doesn't get
"turned off"!

Side note from a person who came from a Harley family: Harley people
generally keep their bikes at home in their garages where they can go
tinker, check and correct things whenever they feel like it ... so
things are usually ready-to-go when they have a ride planned. If you
added up all the time it takes to put on all the gear, stow away
whatever you're bringing (like you do when you fly), and the few minutes
the checking oil and making sure you have fuel the night before, it
would add up to around 10 or 15 minutes, too. And if you had to drive to
another location and do all that elsewhere, like you do with an
airplane, you'd also spend at least that much time before riding away as
well.

The whole experience is supposed to be enjoyable. If the wealthy scuba
diver doesn't like to wait, a bicycle would be a better choice.

I know of two WW II vets who got their private certificates under the GI
Bill.



Larry Dighera wrote:



I have no idea if the cost of flight training is still covered by the
GI Bill, but it was a strong motivating factor in the past. The
problem was, as I recall, that only those instruction costs beyond the
Private Pilot certificate were covered.

"Jose" wrote in message
m...
I don't see how flying a twin or a single relates to Jay's question at
all. Jay's question deals with why people who have an initial interest
in flying apparently lose interest, not why someone who flies a Cherokee
doesn't run out and buy a Baron. By your measurement, I guess the only
people who love flying are those who can afford to prance around in
Gulfstream Vs.

The point is that in both cases, somebody who is attracted to aviation
goes "just so far" and then is satisfied. Jay doesn't understand how this
can be so. For the person who is satisfied by having mastered enough to
solo, he's happy in a way that Jay doesn't understand, because he has the
drive to go further. But Jay too has "stopped"... albeit at a different
place. The reasons that Jay has for stopping are reasons that Jay
understands, since they are =his= reasons, despite the arguments I've
given for continuing on.

My point is that the reasons on both sides and in both places may well be
the same, differing only in perspective. For example, despite the
usefulness of the higher performance aircraft, maintaining currency in a
twin is a commitment, twins cost significantly more to operate, they
operate out of fewer fields, and all these look sneakingly like the
arguments against airplane flight over highway travel for somebody who
thought flying would be =so= handy.

Jose
--


While I don't fully agree with your analogy I understand what you are
saying. But you are missing the point. Yes there are reasons that are beyond
the flying community's ability to correct or deal with when it comes to the
drop-out rate among flight students and this thread has touched on many of
them.

We need to look for the reasons that we can change. A small improvement
would increase the number of pilots significantly.

I agree. We all have run into people who seem to feel that they joined
the flying fraternity by soloing, eventhough it was their last flight.
They got some bragging rights, and the interest or resources for more
advancement were not there; so they quit.


Mike Rapoport wrote:
His point is that all people decide to stop progressing at some point. He
used Jay as an example of someone who stopped progressing at single engine,
fixed gear VFR flying. Others may stop at solo. I don't see much of a
difference between stopping at solo or at PP.

Mike
MU-2

While I don't fully agree with your analogy I understand what you are
saying. But you are missing the point. [...]

We need to look for the reasons that we can change. A small improvement
would increase the number of pilots significantly.

I agree with your last statement. But I don't think I'm missing the
point, I'm just making a different one, to Jay, that might help him get
his head around the phenomena of other people stopping doing something
that (to him) is so wonderful.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article . net,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

His point is that all people decide to stop progressing at some point. He
used Jay as an example of someone who stopped progressing at single engine,
fixed gear VFR flying. Others may stop at solo. I don't see much of a
difference between stopping at solo or at PP.


Stopping at solo doesn't make you a certificated pilot. Jay's question
seemed to ask why many folks bail out before they become pilots.

Once you have taken the tests and become a certificated pilot, there is
little reason to progress beyond that point unless you intend to fly for
a living or fly an airplane that requires more advanced certificates and
ratings. The fact is, a private pilot is a certificated pilot--who can
do anything a commercial pilot can do except fly for hire. An airplane
is pretty much an airplane, and unless I have a need for a twin, or an
instrument rating, why would I want to obtain them?

I hold advanced certificates and ratings, but most of the time the type
of flying I do requires nothing more than a basic private pilot
certificate. If I were just a student pilot, I wouldn't have the skills
nor the legal authority to use aviation as a beneficial tool or hobby.
Sounds like a pretty big difference to me.



JKG

Stopping at solo doesn't make you a certificated pilot. Jay's question
seemed to ask why many folks bail out before they become pilots.

No, but it does make you a =pilot=. You are demonstrably capable of
flying an airplane, and the FAA will let you do so by yourself. Just
like with certificated private pilots, there are some restrictions.
(yes, they are different restrictions).

Once you have soloed, there is little reason to progress beyond that
point unless you intend to fly others, and without requring a CFI
signoff. But that's not my point.

From the POV of somebody at any prominent stopping point, the view
looks the same. "Did I do what I set out to do... does it make sense to
continue so that I can do 'other stuff'".

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.