ELT Required for all SSA sanctioned contests starting 2006

snip
Does anyone know of a way to activate
an EPIRB automatically in the event of a crash ?

Alright: challenge to all of the electronics whizz-kids out the how
about adding a tiny glider mounted tri-axial accelerometer that plugs
into the EPIRB? If you have a mid-air or ride your glider into the
crash, it will activate. If you bail out and sever the connection, it
will activate or you turn it on yourself after you landed out in the
boonies where your cell phone dosen't work.

Uli Neumann


Ian, that question is exactly why I posted the 'challenge' above.

Uli

At 13:36 07 September 2005, Mickiminner wrote:

Just wait until you have to make the phone call to
a wife/spouse that
their pilot hasn't come back to the field.....and you
don't know where
that pilot is. Just wait until you have to launch
rescue search
parties and hoping against all hope that you can get
to the pilot
before they die. Personally, I would rather spend the
$400 or $500
bucks to get an ELT rather than sitting somewhere in
the mountains
waiting to see if anybody 'noticed' where I had gone
down. just my
thoughts. I have been there and hope to never be there
again. I love
the sport, and don't want to see good pilots lost because
they wanted
to push that little bit extra and didn't make it.

I think the point is that the ELT will not indicate
to the rescuers where you are. It may be very interesting
to find the wreckage of your glider but the whole point
of the exercise is to find the pilot. ELT are fine
for powered aircraft where the occupant(s) don't have
the means of abandoning the aircraft and are also the
only way to cover all those on board. For the majority
of glider pilots a PLB would be the far better option.
They already operate on the new frequency and can be
activated automatically by suitably equipped aircraft.
I would have thought that having a beacon serval miles
away in the wreckage of your glider would do little
for you if you have happened to land several miles
away and need assistance.

I would have thought that the choice between pushing
that little bit extra and avoiding crashing was a complete
no brainer, ELT or no ELT.

It seems to me that the choice of ELT is the result
of wholly thinking especially as it has already been
pointed out that it has less to do with pilot safety
and more for the peace of mind of contest organisers.

At 18:24 07 September 2005, T O D D P A T T I S T wrote:
Don Johnstone
wrote:

I think the point is that the ELT will not indicate
to the rescuers where you are. It may be very interesting
to find the wreckage of your glider but the whole point
of the exercise is to find the pilot.

The error zone for locating the ELT is significantly
greater
than the distance any pilot is going to be separated
from
the wreckage by a chute. If you are worried about walking
away after the accident, get one of the removable ELT
units
with voice capability.

ELT are fine
for powered aircraft where the occupant(s) don't have
the means of abandoning the aircraft and are also the
only way to cover all those on board. For the majority
of glider pilots a PLB would be the far better option.

I strongly disagree. Automatic activation in a crash
is
absolutely essential.

Which is why proper aircraft PLBs, not the marine EPIRB
or backpackers PLB, have that capability

http://www.sarbe.com/g2r.htm which has a 'G' switch
activation amongst others (see data sheet on page)

they also produce models for the current frequency
SABRE 5/6 for example. I have looked at other sites
and the PLBs I have seen have the ability to automatically
activate.

http://www.hr-smith.com/products.htm

However this is not the point, the SSA requirement
is not about finding the pilot it is about peace of
mind for organisers (See the earlier posts) Perhaps
the answer should be if the SSA want ELTs in contests
then they should loan them to contestants.

Don Johnstone wrote:

Which is why proper aircraft PLBs, not the marine EPIRB
or backpackers PLB, have that capability

http://www.sarbe.com/g2r.htm which has a 'G' switch
activation amongst others (see data sheet on page)

they also produce models for the current frequency
SABRE 5/6 for example. I have looked at other sites
and the PLBs I have seen have the ability to automatically
activate.

http://www.hr-smith.com/products.htm

This site has no details on the units and the pictures don't load. Is
there site that describes them in detail, particularly the activation,
and has a picture? Is there vendor for them, or at least prices? I
couldn't either.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

G activated ELTs in gliders? This should make the
contest pilots very well known with the local police
and CAP. After a few hundred false ELT alarms from
contest pilots who have the thing bumping around in
the trailer, we'll see how this pans out.

grabs spoon, stirs the s***pot a little more
Mark J. Boyd

M B wrote:

G activated ELTs in gliders? This should make the
contest pilots very well known with the local police

In the country I fly, nearly all gliders are ELT equipped. Very few
false alarms. Hint: You can actually turn the ELT off for transportation
(or secure it, depends on the brand).

Stefan

I've had an ACK-brand ELT in my ASW 24 since 1992. Cost me about $200
plus a fresh set of D-cell batteries every few years (the old ones go
into the flashlights that my young daughters are always leaving
switched on).

No false alarms in that time. No activations either, thank goodness.

I switch it to "armed" before each flight (it's on my checklist) and
back to "off" when I derig. There's an annunciator on my instrument
panel so I can see it blink if it deploys accidentally. More important,
I can manually activate it if necessary after a crash. Or, if I have
great presence of mind, I can punch the button just before I land in
the trees. It came with a "walk out" antenna and lanyard so I can carry
it with me following a survivable crash.

It's not perfect (I'd also like a personal beacon for possible
bailout). And I'd probably have a somewhat different opinion if I had
to buy one now knowing that sat coverage is planned to end in three
years. But I wouldn't squawk about it even if I had to do so. I'll
probably fly 6-9 SSA contests over the next three seasons plus a whole
bunch of practice XC flights over non-flatland terrain. It's worth $3
or $4 a flight for a little peace of mind (however misguided others may
think that is) plus reassurance to my family that I've taken every
reasonable step to maximize my survival if something goes wrong.

I'm not planning to crash, but the situations I think about the most
are takeoff, landing, low thermaling/ridge flying, and mid-air
collision. The first and last scenarios will have witnesses. It's the
two middle cases where an ELT might be valuable. And in both of those,
someone will know I'm missing if I don't return; the first question
will be "where to look?"

As one poster notes, the cost of the 121.5/243 ELTs today is very
likely less than the expected price reduction of 406 units over the
next 3+ years. And that's presuming I would replace my unit with a new
406 ELT at that time, which isn't certain.

And it's a whole lot less expensive--by nearly an order of
magnitude--than the flight recorders we were forced to buy to replace
the clock cameras we were forced to buy to replace the Instamatic
cameras we were forced to buy when turnpoint panels were discontinued
in the 1960s. Ah, those were the good old days...

Chip Bearden

M B wrote:

G activated ELTs in gliders? This should make the
contest pilots very well known with the local police
and CAP. After a few hundred false ELT alarms from
contest pilots who have the thing bumping around in
the trailer, we'll see how this pans out.

I've trailered my ELT equipped glider for about 60,000 miles without a
single activation, and I don't even secure it for travel. I've made
about 300 flights with it, again without activation. I don't know what
airplane pilots do to accidentally activate theirs, but it doesn't seem
to happen in the ELT equipped gliders I know about.

I haven't crashed with it yet, so I can't document that part of it's
ability.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric, first of all, your participation here, as always,
is welcome, and I am glad you have responded. As usual,
I respect your adding your (very well thought out voice)
to this. I'm going to make some points here that are
subtle.

First of all, you are right, I was probably using hyperbole
to make a point. There may not be hundreds of ELT
accidental activations caused by this rule. It may
be less, or even none. I don't know for sure, but
I am going to write about reasons why accidental activations
may be more common than your experience.

Hmmm...making some guesses he

Is your trailer very well padded so the fuselage isn't
damaged during trailering?

Do you have the kind of ELT that required a bit more
sophistication to install, and has a remote activation
button with a small LED light that tells you if it
accidentally activates?

Did you install this ELT voluntarily, and carefully
read the documentation with it about how to install
it correctly and how to dial in 121.5 on the radio
to listen for false activations?

You land real gentle in your nice glider don't you?
Thats why you have so many flights and trailerings,
instead of having it in the repair shop, right?

I'm guessing that for you, and most of your friends,
the answer to all of these will be 'yes.'

For the folks at the 'margin' for whom the added ELT
cost is almost too much to ask to enter a contest,
the answer to these questions may be 'no.' Their trailers
may not be the
$5000-$10,000 cobra with super suspension. The ELT
may be the old non-remote kind bought secondhand with
no documents, and installed themselves non-perfectly.
Their landiing may not be pretty.

These same folks, at the margin, may highly respect
the volunteer efforts of the contest organizers and
want to install the ELT to accomodate their wishes.
But this may not change the economics that they can't
afford a brand new ELT with remote LED professionally
installed, much less a 406MHz GPS unit...

You and I are talking about different things. I don't
think you or most of the other experienced, devoted,
contest pilots with moderate incomes will have that
much of a problem complying with this 'minor change'
to the rules.

But others, including Marc Ramsey, and me, and some
others see this as another brick stacked up in a wall
that creates a slightly larger barrier to entry into
this sport. This barrier affects lower-income, entering
pilots more than those who are already contest fliers.
And at some point too many bricks makes the wall too
high.

There will be some who overcome this, and there will
be some who don't. I think the contest numbers next(?)
year of #s of entrants who have installed ELTs, and
numbers of 'new' entrants compared to prior years,
will speak to this.

I hope I am wrong. I honestly do. In the meantime
I will bang the drum loudly about barriers to entry,
especially for lower-income pilots. And I hope this
will strike a balance opposite those who are willing
to require $$$$s for marginal improvements in the name
of 'safety.'

On the subject of ELTs, I have had one go off accidentally
(the cheapo non-LED kind) when the switch was flicked
by putting in a backpack in the backseat. After engine
shutdown I caught it by the bleedover on the radio
(ASEL).

Three weeks ago a fellow pilot (low timer) had the
police break into his hangar, and subsequently call
him, after a hard landing (ASEL).

Low-timers are more likely to fly lower-quality equipment,
land harder, and have less sophisticated senses about
how to detect accidental activation. And they won't
as commonly have the LED on to warn them of accidental
activations.

Anyway, I enjoy further discussion on this, if you
think it is productive, and appreciate your thoughts
and counterpoints.

At 00:12 08 September 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
M B wrote:

G activated ELTs in gliders? This should make the
contest pilots very well known with the local police
and CAP. After a few hundred false ELT alarms from
contest pilots who have the thing bumping around in
the trailer, we'll see how this pans out.

I've trailered my ELT equipped glider for about 60,000
miles without a
single activation, and I don't even secure it for travel.
I've made
about 300 flights with it, again without activation.
I don't know what
airplane pilots do to accidentally activate theirs,
but it doesn't seem
to happen in the ELT equipped gliders I know about.

I haven't crashed with it yet, so I can't document
that part of it's
ability.


--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Mark J. Boyd

I consider myself a "lower-income" pilot. I installed an Ameri-King model
AK-450 ELT in my HP-14 early this summer. I don't have any false ideas that
this device will "save my life." I installed it, not because of future
contest rules, but simply to help SAR in case something happened while
flying in the mountains. (See:
http://www.soaridaho.com/photogallery/index.htm)

My unit is actuated by excessive "G" loading along the longitudinatal axis.
(Ameri-King also makes a model for helicopters that is actuated by both
longitudinal and vertical "G" forces.) The installation instructions are
complete and simple to follow.

I arm the system when I assemble the glider and turn it off during
de-assembly. (These actions are part of my check lists.) There isn't
anything fancy about my trailer. That is unless you consider spring on the
axle "fancy." Even if I didn't turn the unit off before trailering the '14,
I don't think normal or emergency braking would actuate the unit.

My unit was purchased from Tim Mara (http://www.wingsandwheels.com). A
couple hundred "bucks" isn't excessive amount to invest assist in a SAR
effort, even for a HP-14 driver.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com



"M B" wrote in message
...
Eric, first of all, your participation here, as always,
is welcome, and I am glad you have responded. As usual,
I respect your adding your (very well thought out voice)
to this. I'm going to make some points here that are
subtle.

First of all, you are right, I was probably using hyperbole
to make a point. There may not be hundreds of ELT
accidental activations caused by this rule. It may
be less, or even none. I don't know for sure, but
I am going to write about reasons why accidental activations
may be more common than your experience.

Hmmm...making some guesses he

Is your trailer very well padded so the fuselage isn't
damaged during trailering?

Do you have the kind of ELT that required a bit more
sophistication to install, and has a remote activation
button with a small LED light that tells you if it
accidentally activates?

Did you install this ELT voluntarily, and carefully
read the documentation with it about how to install
it correctly and how to dial in 121.5 on the radio
to listen for false activations?

You land real gentle in your nice glider don't you?
Thats why you have so many flights and trailerings,
instead of having it in the repair shop, right?

I'm guessing that for you, and most of your friends,
the answer to all of these will be 'yes.'

For the folks at the 'margin' for whom the added ELT
cost is almost too much to ask to enter a contest,
the answer to these questions may be 'no.' Their trailers
may not be the
$5000-$10,000 cobra with super suspension. The ELT
may be the old non-remote kind bought secondhand with
no documents, and installed themselves non-perfectly.
Their landiing may not be pretty.

These same folks, at the margin, may highly respect
the volunteer efforts of the contest organizers and
want to install the ELT to accomodate their wishes.
But this may not change the economics that they can't
afford a brand new ELT with remote LED professionally
installed, much less a 406MHz GPS unit...

You and I are talking about different things. I don't
think you or most of the other experienced, devoted,
contest pilots with moderate incomes will have that
much of a problem complying with this 'minor change'
to the rules.

But others, including Marc Ramsey, and me, and some
others see this as another brick stacked up in a wall
that creates a slightly larger barrier to entry into
this sport. This barrier affects lower-income, entering
pilots more than those who are already contest fliers.
And at some point too many bricks makes the wall too
high.

There will be some who overcome this, and there will
be some who don't. I think the contest numbers next(?)
year of #s of entrants who have installed ELTs, and
numbers of 'new' entrants compared to prior years,
will speak to this.

I hope I am wrong. I honestly do. In the meantime
I will bang the drum loudly about barriers to entry,
especially for lower-income pilots. And I hope this
will strike a balance opposite those who are willing
to require $$$$s for marginal improvements in the name
of 'safety.'

On the subject of ELTs, I have had one go off accidentally
(the cheapo non-LED kind) when the switch was flicked
by putting in a backpack in the backseat. After engine
shutdown I caught it by the bleedover on the radio
(ASEL).

Three weeks ago a fellow pilot (low timer) had the
police break into his hangar, and subsequently call
him, after a hard landing (ASEL).

Low-timers are more likely to fly lower-quality equipment,
land harder, and have less sophisticated senses about
how to detect accidental activation. And they won't
as commonly have the LED on to warn them of accidental
activations.

Anyway, I enjoy further discussion on this, if you
think it is productive, and appreciate your thoughts
and counterpoints.