death of GA in NY

I've seen way too many CFIs go on to get airline jobs to believe that losing
that stream of employees wouldn't hurt.

There are way more people who want to be airline pilots than there are
jobs for them. The airlines will never have a real shortage of pilots.
At worst, they will simply drop their mins to 250 hours, the way they
airlines in countries with essentially no GA do.

Michael

I know what you are saying,
I have alot of friends here that will not fly to a airport with fees,
they hate them like I do. I wonder if it's just a southern thing?

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
...


W P Dixon wrote:
Maybe I look at it strangely?
When you pay to park your car in a parking lot is it on private
property?
I never know. It is being managed and presumably atleast leased by a
private operator. Go to a federal or state building and you park in a pay
parking lot.
When you pay to park your plane is it on private property? My take on it
is, if it is being (car or plane) parked on public property funded by
taxpayers it has already been paid for.
I feel that way about using the ATC system and operating in and out of
public airports. But every ramp I see (and want to park on) is privately
operated. I don't think it makes any difference who *owns* it, the
question is who *operates* it. That is, who puts the chains out, chocks
at night as required, provides security, who is liable?
Heck I hate toll roads! Now if a private company wants to build a road
and charge a toll , fine. When tax dollars pay for the construction it
just really gets my goat. I don't mind some sort of tax, but I hate being
"double" taxed . I just do not see taxes funding airports and then the
airport turning around charging someone a landing fee or what have you ,
when the Federal tax dollar supports the airport. If the airport wants to
charge for it's use, then it needs to be a private airport and not
publicly funded. IMHO, a 2 buck charge at a funded airport is 2 bucks to
much .
It's pretty obvious that roads *have* to be a public entity. It's a
regional and national interest and private ownership just won't work (who
would build the interstates? Or the PA turnpike? Major airports, to a
lesser extent, need to be public too. Otherwise they would all be closed
or closing. NIMBY applies, squared!
Is it just me or does anyone else feel they are being ripped off when
airports do this? Seems to me they could do more biz by not having
landing and parking fees. More pilots would stop there and use their
services wouldn't they?
No, I don't think so. If that were the case, someone would be running a
Walmart FBO chain and cleaning up. Who cleans up in the FBO business? Who
cleans up in the small piston FBO business. Let's see, "if I just didn't
have to pay $12 bucks to park overnight (with no fuel) I'd fly 20 more
hours a year". I don't think so.
I think the fees just add to the slow death of
GA in an area.
Myself, I fly to get somewhere and land where I'm closest to my
destination. I pay the fees with a smile when asked. I appreciate each
and every airport I land at mainly because they are there. Good services
are even better. I rarely end up paying a government entity directly
though I'm sure taxes are collected from those private operators operating
on public land. The few airports where the local gov actually operates
the airport, things seem to get strange... but that's ok too.

I don't like the idea of ATC user fees. I don't like state run lotteries.
But I like successful FBOs and usually end up 'ripping them off' (burp)
rather than feeling ripped off.

W P Dixon wrote:

Seems to me they could do more biz by not having landing
and parking fees. More pilots would stop there and use their services
wouldn't they? I think the fees just add to the slow death of GA in an
area.

You're still missing it, I think. You're thinking "small GA". A $35 fee is
nothing to "big GA", and it is those large jet-A burners that spend a
serious dollar or two on fuel (and other services, I presume).

That fee keeps pilots out; it's *supposed* to keep [certain] pilots out. We
use up almost as much space and time as the big guys, buy less than the big
guys, so we're somewhat undesirable from a commercial perspective.

In a way, this is a good sign: there's enough money to be made in GA, so the
airports and FBOs are turning away the less profitable business. Sadly,
some of us (ie. me) are a part of that less profitable segment.

- Andrew

Andrew wrote:
You're still missing it, I think. You're thinking "small GA". A $35 fee
is
nothing to "big GA", and it is those large jet-A burners that spend a
serious dollar or two on fuel (and other services, I presume).

That fee keeps pilots out; it's *supposed* to keep [certain] pilots out.
We
use up almost as much space and time as the big guys, buy less than the
big
guys, so we're somewhat undesirable from a commercial perspective.

In a way, this is a good sign: there's enough money to be made in GA, so
the
airports and FBOs are turning away the less profitable business. Sadly,
some of us (ie. me) are a part of that less profitable segment.

- Andrew

Exactly. This is why I posed the question about why a busy GA airport
that is used almost exclusively for light planes and flight training
"needs" to lengthen a 5500 ft runway ("for safety") and whether the small
plane crowd objects. Of course I was ridiculed and someone asked why I
would pose such a question.... My theory meshes with your thoughts: It
seems to me that the FBOs want more repair work, more fuel fees, etc.

The airport doesn't care about noise abatement, city taxes, and maybe,
just maybe, doesn't even care about the current users. They just want the
Net Jets and other fractionals for the benefit of the FBOs.

In article
outaviation.com,
"Skylune" (a pathetic excuse for a human being)
tried (and failed) to make a point:

Orville: What percentage of boaters use Coast Guard Services vs.
percentage of flyers using FAA funded services (including the airports
themselves, controllers, etc.)? How much of an operating subsidy and
capital subsidy do private marinas receive?

Plenty -- The Corps of Engineers keeps the harbors dredged; bridges have
to be raised/lowered for yachtsmen (such as "Skyloon") (or is he a
stinkpot driver?). They also require police to kep security, fire
services -- all paid by the taxpayers.

Don't come whining to ME about "subsidies"!



Why does the AOPA cry about "privatization" and "user fees" while the Boat
US has no such issues?

Because the boaters haven't been threatened (yet).


By the way, your red plane is butt ugly.

I can tell that "Skyloon" probably have far better taste than your wife
(or girlfriend/boyfriend), but have absolutely NO appreciation for good
airplanes. (The fool doesn't know how to spell my name, either.)

I think your travel time was more than one hour. Cow Hampshire to Lon
Gisland is a heck of a drive. You should take up flying


"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
Given the clear weather and the (odd) northeasterly wind, I travelled a
bit
farther out of the Peconic than I normally would have. Got some shelter
around Southhold bay, about 8 nm from the marina. Total travel time, each
way, about 25 minutes. So, say about an hour of travel time, at about 15
gph. We spent about 6 hours on the water, and several more at the dock.

"Skylune" wrote:

Orville: What percentage of boaters use Coast Guard Services vs.
percentage of flyers using FAA funded services (including the airports
themselves, controllers, etc.)? How much of an operating subsidy and
capital subsidy do private marinas receive?

How many lakes, rivers, reservoirs, other bodies of water were created,
altered, maintained by the Corp of Engineers for the purpose of
recreational boating as a primary or tertiary reasons? How much does the
Corp spend each year to maintain those bodies of water?

john smith wrote:

"Skylune" wrote:


Orville: What percentage of boaters use Coast Guard Services vs.
percentage of flyers using FAA funded services (including the airports
themselves, controllers, etc.)? How much of an operating subsidy and
capital subsidy do private marinas receive?


How many lakes, rivers, reservoirs, other bodies of water were created,
altered, maintained by the Corp of Engineers for the purpose of
recreational boating as a primary or tertiary reasons? How much does the
Corp spend each year to maintain those bodies of water?

The Corp steals water from us here in Montana every year to keep the
Missouri navigable for you folks farther downstream.

LOL. I actually thought about restarting my flight training, now that I
have more time to do so and split time between Cow Hampshire and Lawn Guy
Land. But I think not....

The once a week lesson (then once a month due to time constraints) that
the damned flight school at FRG sold me on years back just wasn't gonna
work out. (That, plus my experiences flying with my buddy out of ISP who
still can't figure out how to use the new-fangled GPS is why I know that
there are many GA flyers who just are not that skilled.) Of course, the
flight school was more than willing to take my $$ before I realized you
can't get competent by training sporatically, so I pulled the plug and
stuck with my other time consuming hobbies.

But, I can easily drive to New London (and take a few minutes to protest
the illegal taking of private property there), hop on the ferry, and be
home in about 4 hours. Flying, with the pre-flight, weather, car rental,
etc. wouldn't save that much time, and I'd constantly be keeping my eye
on the weather.

Personally, I would never again take up flying again unless I had the time
to get instrument rated. Of course, I would be more than willing to pay my
own way, and would obey all noise abatement procedures (safety allowing),
unlike the dolts who just don't give a s____t.

Thank you for not buzzing my house on your trip to Maine.

That's a good question. I think the answer is "none", it's done for
commercial reasons, not to support recreational boating. But I'm not
sure.

If there are subsidies for recreational boating, they should be
eliminated, and user fees substituted.