Buying Junk from Aircraft Spruce --- Or Putting Money Down a Rathole

Aircraft Spruce

Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
in the situation.

Larry purchased this Mitchell instruments some 8 months ago, and
yesterday called to report that the instrument was defective and
demanded his money back. The instruments is within its' year
warranty so we offered to bring it back and have it repaired under
warranty for him. Larry then proceeded to give our girl in Customer
Service a large dose of profanity along with threats to blast our
company to his news-group. He also spoke with Mitchell directly and
verbally abused them as well, at which time they advised us tat they
would not deal with him in any way. Our Customer Service manager,
Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
She was greeted with another long string of profanity and unreasonable
demands, at which time she terminated the conversation. Aircraft
Spruce will always do whatever we can to assist a customer, but my
staff does not need to be abused.

There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
is insulting. The fact is that several sizes of 4130 sheet has not
been available for Normalized (N) Condition in about a year, and these
sizes are only available in Annealed (A) condition. Until these sizes
are again produced by a mill in (N) condition, annealed material will
be provided by ourselves and many other suppliers. We clearly state
this in our current catalog and on our website. All the 4130 sheet we
furnish is indeed 4130, and we have full test reports on file for
anyone that needs them.

I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
newsgroup. If anyone would like further information or needs
assistance please contact me directly at .
Thanks to all of our valued customers for continued support.

Jim Irwin
President, Aircraft Spruce



Jim,

I wouldn't be too concerned with this character, we all know that anything he
complains about is likely of his own making.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

I wish to address the privacy issue. It appears that one or more people
feel that all of the transaction should be considered private and Aircraft
Spruce breached this right of privacy when it disclosed conversations
between a customer and Aircraft Spruce.

There is neither a common law nor a statutory right of privacy regarding the
conversations mentioned.

Certain financial information is protected by federal and or state law.
Similarly, most medical information is protected.

By custom, it would probably be considered in bad taste to discredit a
customer in public - unless that information is relevant to dispute harmful
claims made by a customer. In essence, truth is a defense.

For Aircraft Spruce, their reputation and integrity is their most valuable
asset and they have every right to protect and defend it in a public forum.
If that means making conversations with a customer public, after the
customer has given a different story, then it is proper to do so.

I am simply commenting on one of the issues raised. In regard to the
matters alleged, the reader will have to decide for themselves.

Colin N12HS


You should have every right to respond in the same forum as was chosen by the
accuser. Latchless picked the playing field and you responded in the most
appropriate manner I can think of.




Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

From: " jls"
Date: 2/1/2005 20:18 Central Standard Time
Message-id:

snip

Our Customer Service manager,
Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.

That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT gauge
in your ear.



I have dealt with Carolyn, she's always been pleasant and helpful even when the
error was mine.

Sounds like you have a people problem.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: " jls"
Date: 2/1/2005 20:18 Central Standard Time
Message-id:

snip

Our Customer Service manager,
Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.

That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT gauge
in your ear.



I have dealt with Carolyn, she's always been pleasant and helpful even when
the
error was mine.

Sounds like you have a people problem.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Damn Dan, you are prone to understatements!


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

The problem with ACSS is that they are amateurs selling to amateurs ....

If they were a real aircraft parts and materials supply company they would
supply the material with certificates of compliance providing tracability to
the source. There would be no doubt about what they supplied.

My guess is that the metal had no mill stamps and hence was assumed to be
mild steel ... in fact it could well have been anything but I don't think
they knew whether of not it was 4130 or mild steel.

Few people in the real aircraft industry would deal with aircraft spruce.
What they are selling could well amount to bogus parts without the proper
documentation. Who knows where the stuff comes from or what it really is.


"Greybeard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
wrote:

jls wrote:
So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

BTW I am not accusing ACSS of anything just saying that without proper
documentation and a quality system that undergoes continuous external audits
there are simply no guarantee's and the simple facts are that you cannot be
sure what you have.

I have bought a lot of stuff from ACSS and I have never received paper work
that would qualify the parts for use on a certificated airplane. You simply
get an invoice listing parts, quantity and price.

ACSS is cheap but you only get what you pay for. If you want more assurances
about what you have bought then go to Avial or other supplies for the
industry and pay the premium. ACSS are homebuilders selling to homebuilders
....

This is not a comment on the quality of service (In my experience always
good) ... just about tracability of aircraft parts.



"......... :-))" wrote in message
u...
The problem with ACSS is that they are amateurs selling to amateurs ....

If they were a real aircraft parts and materials supply company they would
supply the material with certificates of compliance providing tracability
to
the source. There would be no doubt about what they supplied.

My guess is that the metal had no mill stamps and hence was assumed to be
mild steel ... in fact it could well have been anything but I don't think
they knew whether of not it was 4130 or mild steel.

Few people in the real aircraft industry would deal with aircraft spruce.
What they are selling could well amount to bogus parts without the proper
documentation. Who knows where the stuff comes from or what it really is.


"Greybeard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
wrote:

jls wrote:
So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

From: osite (RobertR237)
Date: 2/1/2005 21:02 Central Standard Time
Message-id:


From: " jls"
Date: 2/1/2005 20:18 Central Standard Time
Message-id:

snip

Our Customer Service manager,
Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.

That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT
gauge
in your ear.



I have dealt with Carolyn, she's always been pleasant and helpful even when
the
error was mine.

Sounds like you have a people problem.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Damn Dan, you are prone to understatements!


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....


'scuse me, but I was NOT prone when I wrote that, I was sitting up.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

jls wrote:

So, in my book, Jim Irwin is a son of a bitch and his customer service is
right out of hell.

I take it you've been there recently to know? :-)

Matt

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:07:19 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:

jls wrote:

So, in my book, Jim Irwin is a son of a bitch and his customer service is
right out of hell.

I take it you've been there recently to know? :-)

That's where he lives, but it's of his own making.

Greybeard

If they continue to be so bad in your estimation, why do you continue to buy
there?

jls wrote:

"Mark Hickey" wrote in message
...
"Plane Fun" wrote:

There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
is insulting.

Sounds like such a claim could qualify for full-on libel (given the
potential for harming the business if potential customers were to
believe such a claim).

Mark "but don't even play a lawyer on TV" Hickey

Let the sonofabitch sue for libel. I dare him to. I don't hurt his
reputation; he does. And if any of the angry Irwin toadies I have brought
out of the woodwork are to be believed I have HELPED Irwin's reputation.

If you want to know what so many people have said about Jim Irwin and
Aircraft Spruce, just do a Google Groups advanced search with the term,
"aircraft spruce." No offense to you, but that should get your case
rested, not to mention that truth is a defense.

Matter of fact, a few of the great volumes of complaints ought to be
published here, just to give an idea of the angry ridicule of Irwin's decade
of dark history in "customer service."

I never would have believed there were such torrents of hateful invective
against one man if I hadn't gone and looked just now. Take a look, if you
don't believe me. Irwin's fuXXed people from coast to coast and across the
pond. So don't believe a word I have said if you don't want to; the record
still damns him to customer relationships only with buffoons and masochists.

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
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