Don't fly here...

Its not that bad Jay. The arch can be pretty creepy at night though,
due to the number of trees that line every walking path. After 5pm
downtown St. Louis pretty much "shuts down" unless there's a sporting
event going on. We're just not a downtown sort of city. The
activities all are happening further west in the suburbs or Clayton.

There has been a recent push (last 5-7 years or so) to develop pocket
sort of communities to attract people to downtown again (Washington Ave
Loft district, Laclede's landing, etc) with differing levels of
success.

There has been a recent push (last 5-7 years or so) to develop pocket
sort of communities to attract people to downtown again (Washington Ave
Loft district, Laclede's landing, etc) with differing levels of
success.

Yeah, most larger cities are trying this approach, with varying degrees of
success.

Even Iowa City is developing an area into an "old-fashioned" neighborhood,
with the houses close to the street, front porches, and no garages allowed
to be facing the street. Very 1940s-ish. The zoning is very strict, and --
so far -- the concept has proven to be fairly unpopular.

I think most commentators have missed the REAL reason people have "fled" to
the suburbs. It has less to do with crime, and more to do with wanting a
little land. Personally, I look at these beautiful, newly developed homes
and think "nice house -- where's the back yard"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

If they mention East St. Louis, then I would agree with that assesment
without a question. You DO NOT want to set your foot in this town. Keep this
in mind that East St.Louis IS NOT a part of St. Louis. East St. Louis belong
to Illinois, not Missouri. That is a separate city. Don't get confused with
that.

--
Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar
"Ben Smith" wrote in message
...
I spent most of my life in St. Louis. Personally, I don't understand why
St.Louis was selected as one of the most dangerous cities. I have seen
the
good side and the bad side of this town. I considered the Southside of
Chicago, and several towns near Pittsburgh are more dangerous than
St.Louis. So, I have to say that St. Louis is not as bad as reported by
CNN.
I support this statement based on what I personally have seen.

You'd think they were talking about East St. Louis instead.

I came across this interesting page about ESL:

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

East St Louis is one of the scariest places on the planet.

http://www.builtstlouis.net/eaststlouis/eaststl00.html

Interesting. Mary and I stood under the Arch, well after hours, one
summer
night not long ago. Everything was closed and deserted, and we were the
ONLY people there. It was lovely, with a moon rising over the city...
Very romantic.

Then, it started to get creepy, knowing how close East St Louis was to us,
and how totally vulnerable we were. There we were, two dumb white people
with big targets painted on our backs, and we high-tailed it out of there.

The area on the East St. Louis's rivershore is fine, just a couple of
casinio riverboats. Only the area beyond that is nightmare, especially at
night time.


A bittersweet memory. I still remember when most cities were safe to
walk
around in.

You don't feel safe walking around Arch at night time? I thought that this
place was fairly safe, but creepy at night because this place was 'shut
down' like bld said. There is an active night life going on at north side of
Arch (Laclede's landing, etc) I guess you never went there.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You don't feel safe walking around Arch at night time? I thought that this
place was fairly safe, but creepy at night because this place was 'shut
down' like bld said. There is an active night life going on at north side
of
Arch (Laclede's landing, etc) I guess you never went there.

Actually, that's where we high-tailed it *to*...

Yeah, all those trees and shrubs around the Arch -- so beautiful in the
daytime -- sure make you feel vulnerable at night. Too many places to hide.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

It is easy once you know the two basic rules - just like in Italy.

1. Whatsa behind is ofa no importance.
2. If you make eye contact, you have yielded the right-of-way.

Follow these two simple rules and you, too, can be a successful driver
in Boston and the rest of MA.

Haha!

My most interesting accident in MA was on Route 9 near Framingham. The
light turned red, and everyone came to a stop, except the lady in the car
behind me. Well, eventually she did stop, actually, but not before slamming
into my rear bumper.

Of course, crumple zones and all, her car had more damage than mine. When
we went to exchange insurance info she gave me her business card and said,
"I work for xyz insurance company. This happens all the time. Just call me
and we'll get it taken care of."

I'm not sure, but I figure I was the subject of a field experiment.

Matt Barrow wrote:
"Brad" wrote in message
oups.com...
Further, the statistics for Richmond (and perhaps other cities as
well) are skewed in that the crime stats for the City do not include
the suburbs in the surrounding counties that normally balance out the
crime rate.

That's why the stats ar for cities, not metro areas.

Which is why these stats are meaningless.


As a homeowner in Richmond and a resident in DC, I feel
much safer in Richmond than I do in DC...especially in the air

I'd feel safer anywhere besides DC.

Depends where in DC

Interesting, there is a similar thing being developed right at the
left downwind to base corner for 27 at 3SQ (St. Charles, a suburb of
St. Louis) Called New Town. The concept is to create a "neighborhood"
with shops, etc so that you can walk from your house to a restaraunt
etc. Mix of home styles all together, a lake, etc.

You also pay a premium for living there (about 10-15% more than for
similarly sized homes "down the street"), in addition to the zoning
rules, etc. It always seemed to me that it would be like living on the
backlot of a movie set or Disney World. Especially considering the
land it sits on is well separated from any other housing developments,
etc. It was a sod farm in its previous incantation. And underwater in
'94.

A picture can be found at
http://www.newurbannews.com/NewTownInsideJul05.html

When they started putting it in, I assumed if it was successful that it
would be the death of the airport. Supposedly it has been successful,
with Phase II being developed. Although the airport is still kicking.

In my opinion its not crime that causes urban centers to decay,
especially not in St. Louis. It's that the vast majority of jobs are
outside the city center. Living downtown when your job was downtown
made a certain amount of sense (especially if you could get the
niceties of life, food, cultural events, sporting events, etc.) But
why commute OUT of a city center just to say you live there?

Most of the urban revitilazation is targeting the well-off young crowd
(just out of college), the gay community, and the empty-nester retired
community. The feeling is that they will be the most likely to move
in, which will then allow a population to draw further business
development (grocery stores for instance).

Brian
Archer N9093K

Similarly, Central Park in NYC always felt creepy to me after dark
unless you were near a street, and even then its kind of creepy with
the tall brick and concrete walls on the park side.

I think its mostly a sense of people. You don't feel creeped out late
at night around the 4th of July because the place is packed with
people, but when its just a few of you, our animal instincts take over.

In any case my point was that the Arch is probably fine crime wise.
You're more likely to get mugged outside of one of the casino's.
Judging from the news reports that happens rather frequently.

In article . com,
"bdl" wrote:

Interesting, there is a similar thing being developed right at the
left downwind to base corner for 27 at 3SQ (St. Charles, a suburb of
St. Louis) Called New Town. The concept is to create a "neighborhood"
with shops, etc so that you can walk from your house to a restaraunt
etc. Mix of home styles all together, a lake, etc.

You also pay a premium for living there (about 10-15% more than for
similarly sized homes "down the street"), in addition to the zoning
rules, etc. It always seemed to me that it would be like living on the
backlot of a movie set or Disney World. Especially considering the
land it sits on is well separated from any other housing developments,
etc. It was a sod farm in its previous incantation. And underwater in
'94.

A picture can be found at
http://www.newurbannews.com/NewTownInsideJul05.html

When they started putting it in, I assumed if it was successful that it
would be the death of the airport. Supposedly it has been successful,
with Phase II being developed. Although the airport is still kicking.

The concept is called "New Urbanism." The major flaw in the concept is
that people choose their shops, based on quality, style and service, not
immediate convenience.

If the restaurants are either greasy spoons that would gag a buzzard or
charge ripoff prices or have lousy service, they will die, regardless of
how close to everybody's house they are. The development COULD even be
an asset to the airport, if pilots find the place attractive and
convenient.

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.