PW-6 family fun ------

Ben Flewett wrote:
The answer is simple. The ASK 21 is a quality glider.

I have to agree with that. The K-21 is a quality glider.

The PW6 is a lower quality glider built to a price.

I'd like you to explain just exactly how it is lower quality.
Materials, finish, design, ergonomics, L/D, what?

Comparing these two gliders is like comparing a BMW
and a Hyundai.

In the United States, BMW sales numbers are declining.
They haven't been in the top ten in build quality for at
least the last five years. Maybe you meant to say a
Honda or Toyota, huh?

Hyundai cars seem to be getting better every year as
evidenced by their 10 year/100,000 mile warrenty, new
models and consistantly increasing sales in the U.S.

If you are struggling with the answer to your question
I suggest you take a closer look at the two aircraft.
If you can't see the difference in build quality then
you have even less engineering awareness than me -
and that's saying something.

Again, I'm curious about your comment. Please enlighten
me with your specific details about build quality.

I see by your previous post that you don't like Jantars
either. Is there a problem with their build quality also?

I can see you making a positive comment about the
K-21 if you prefer it, but I don't understand why you
get any satisfaction from putting down other people's
ships.

These two place ships are mostly bought by clubs and
most clubs, at least here in the U.S. are on a budget.
So, Yes a $40,000 price difference plus lower refinish
costs and lower parts costs are a very good incentive
to purchase a PW-6.

Check the tailplane hookup arrangement. Note that
when you sit in the back of the 21 you actually have
instruments.

I looked at the PW-6 website and it looks to me like the
PW-6 has an altimeter, airspeed indicator, two varios,
a turn and bank and a compass in the back seat.

You have another look:
http://jarek24.w.interia.pl/pw/pw6/p...tml/pw6-19.htm

Just how many more instruments do you need?

Also, check the finish of a 5 year old 6 vs a 5 year
old 21.

Let's see, a polyurethene paint job versus a gel coat refinish.
Hmmmm, which costs a lot more?

There's nothing wrong with the PW6 if you are buying
to a price. It lower quality and therefore cheaper.

Again, could you please be more specific about this
quaility issue.

You always get what you pay for.

That is not necessarily true.

I'd like to add the comment that if not for lower cost
alternatives from Checz, Italy or Poland (ie. competition)
the German gliders would cost even more.

Willie G.

Having sort of followed this little thread and having just followed the
url you posted I would like to know if there is somewhere I can find out
more about the PW6. Aesthetically it's a real looker so I would like to
read some more tech spec please.

Thanks in advance, Phil
CFI 8Ball soaring association UK

Willie wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote:
The answer is simple. The ASK 21 is a quality glider.

I have to agree with that. The K-21 is a quality glider.

The PW6 is a lower quality glider built to a price.

I'd like you to explain just exactly how it is lower quality.
Materials, finish, design, ergonomics, L/D, what?

Comparing these two gliders is like comparing a BMW
and a Hyundai.

In the United States, BMW sales numbers are declining.
They haven't been in the top ten in build quality for at
least the last five years. Maybe you meant to say a
Honda or Toyota, huh?

Hyundai cars seem to be getting better every year as
evidenced by their 10 year/100,000 mile warrenty, new
models and consistantly increasing sales in the U.S.

If you are struggling with the answer to your question
I suggest you take a closer look at the two aircraft.
If you can't see the difference in build quality then
you have even less engineering awareness than me -
and that's saying something.

Again, I'm curious about your comment. Please enlighten
me with your specific details about build quality.

I see by your previous post that you don't like Jantars
either. Is there a problem with their build quality also?

I can see you making a positive comment about the
K-21 if you prefer it, but I don't understand why you
get any satisfaction from putting down other people's
ships.

These two place ships are mostly bought by clubs and
most clubs, at least here in the U.S. are on a budget.
So, Yes a $40,000 price difference plus lower refinish
costs and lower parts costs are a very good incentive
to purchase a PW-6.

Check the tailplane hookup arrangement. Note that
when you sit in the back of the 21 you actually have
instruments.

I looked at the PW-6 website and it looks to me like the
PW-6 has an altimeter, airspeed indicator, two varios,
a turn and bank and a compass in the back seat.

You have another look:
http://jarek24.w.interia.pl/pw/pw6/p...tml/pw6-19.htm

Just how many more instruments do you need?

Also, check the finish of a 5 year old 6 vs a 5 year
old 21.

Let's see, a polyurethene paint job versus a gel coat refinish.
Hmmmm, which costs a lot more?

There's nothing wrong with the PW6 if you are buying
to a price. It lower quality and therefore cheaper.

Again, could you please be more specific about this
quaility issue.

You always get what you pay for.

That is not necessarily true.

I'd like to add the comment that if not for lower cost
alternatives from Checz, Italy or Poland (ie. competition)
the German gliders would cost even more.

Willie G.

phil collin napisał(a):
Having sort of followed this little thread and having just followed the
url you posted I would like to know if there is somewhere I can find out
more about the PW6. Aesthetically it's a real looker so I would like to
read some more tech spec please.

Thanks in advance, Phil

Hi
Take a look here http://www.szdjezow.com.pl/
and here http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html



regards
--
--=JJay=--
www.aeroklub.deblin.pl, my photos at airfoto.pl - http://tiny.pl/xlkk
Get smart - http://www.GetFireFox.com

Hi Phil,

I was unable to bring the PZL Swidnik web site. Swidnik is the "old"
manufacturer of the PW5/6 line. My understanding is that the production
has moved to SZD Jezow. Here is the link to those gliders
http://www.szdjezow.com.pl/szybowcepw_pol.html
It is in polish, I couldn't find the English version but going through
the numbers will give you a pretty good idea about the glider(s).

I can't understand Knacklappen comments: ASK-21...and PW-6U...well,
PW-6U has polyurethane finish, not a gel. Its finish is actually better
then the K-21. There are few K-21 flying here in the western U.S. and I
flew in couple of them...the finish on the K-21 is not that
great...PW-6U finish is much better....and I don't know if having a
choice of brand new PW-6U and K-21, taking in consideration all the
costs associated with a purchase of a glider,....well, I know I would
not buy a K-21. Well, Mr. Knacklappen...are you bias in your opinions
or simply don't know what you are talking about? And I absolutely agree
with comments posted by Willie G. There are better cars then Mercedes
and BMW. Toyota, Honda, and a Hyundai...they keep making better and
better cars. And the same applies to gliders. If the Germans were the
only glider manufacturers in the world they would sell them for much,
much more. Having said that, are Germans manufacturing any basic
trainers? And then any basic gliders? And then gliders for recreational
casual pilot? And don't give me any #@%$&^@ about used, tired, old
LS-4. Lets keep the discussion on a new glider subject. On another
note, with all do respect for Ben...Jantars are built like a tanks.
They will keep on flying for many more years. They are good solid
ships. I really would like to encourage people buying gliders in
Poland, made by SZD Bielsko, in business for many years, made by LAK,
made by LET and HPH, made by Windward Performance of Bend, Oregon. In
addition, maybe there is some backyard shop with some new design idea
having totally fresh look at soaring. In the mean time don't bash
existing glider manufacturers. They are trying hard. And if you keep
bringing just the German ships, well.....our sport is on its way to be,
just like the dinosaurs, extinct.

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

Well Jacek, at least we appreciate your enthusiasm. And please don't
let facts blind you, ever. Best Regards and may you live a happy and
peaceful life in your little bubble.

/K

So Knack...just out of curiousity, you don't double
as your club's recruiting officer do you?

thanks for the interesting link explaining DG pricing, very good! I reckon the best way to reduce hardware cost is to make loads of it, meaning we need LOTS more pilots.
Think of how much a car cost 50 years ago and what you got for that money.
Now think of the current crop of computered, airbagged, luxurios, economical, quiet smooth vehicles available from all over the world -THAT is what we want in a glider.
There will always be a market for top class gliders, producing more of them will make them cheaper, not producing lower class gliders for the masses, that is short term at its worst.

Please dont come back extolling the virtues of your '71 buick vs a new hyundai -in reality you wish to be pilotting a new ASG or DG808, not a KA6. Think laterally, the more pilots, the more demand, the more gliders, the cheaper the build price and the cheaper the second hand market for good gliders (creating easier access for more pilots) and forward we go.

Dont re-invent the wheel

No, I'm afraid my qualities are not in diplomacy...
as everyone undoubtedly has understood by now...

Just hope that no one will take my comments as general statement
against polish gliders. I have looked at some and some indeed seem to
be nice ships. I just happen to find joy in putting off PW-zealots...
Naughty me...

Actually I thought that post #29 would be my last in this thread, but
Jacek seemed to beg for a comment. Well, maybe now I can find some
rest... )

Ohhhh...woooowww!!!!!!

I don't think the glider manufacturing industry will ever lend itself to the
automation and volume necessary to see the price versus quality ratio change
very much. Gliders will remain much like the hand crafted Italian sports
cars . . . and in price too.

bumper

"bagmaker" wrote in message
...

thanks for the interesting link explaining DG pricing, very good! I
reckon the best way to reduce hardware cost is to make loads of it,
meaning we need LOTS more pilots.
Think of how much a car cost 50 years ago and what you got for that
money.
Now think of the current crop of computered, airbagged, luxurios,
economical, quiet smooth vehicles available from all over the world
-THAT is what we want in a glider.
There will always be a market for top class gliders, producing more of
them will make them cheaper, not producing lower class gliders for the
masses, that is short term at its worst.

Please dont come back extolling the virtues of your '71 buick vs a new
hyundai -in reality you wish to be pilotting a new ASG or DG808, not a
KA6. Think laterally, the more pilots, the more demand, the more
gliders, the cheaper the build price and the cheaper the second hand
market for good gliders (creating easier access for more pilots) and
forward we go.

Dont re-invent the wheel


--
bagmaker