Continuous Closed Traffic Approved

In article ,
LWG wrote:
I have nothing against the LSA or the SP, I just don't think they have
enough practicality to catch on.

Okay ... what exactly is not practical about them? They are by far the
cheapest new airplanes out there, most of them run on mogas (of course,
who knows what's happening with ethanol, but still), they have low
operating costs, it seems like most of them cruise in the 90-110 knot
range. Maybe it doesn't carry as much load as quickly as your
Sundowner ... but they're still airplanes, and people can fly in them.
Most of the ones I've seen have a more useful load than a 152.

I would really like to see more people
flying, I just don't think that this will affect the decline in GA. It
looks like we are the last of a generation. I remember my intense
preoccupation with flying when I was a teenager, and compare it to what I
see, even with my own kids. They couldn't care less about aviation, unless
it says Lear or Gulfstream, and that't not for the flying, it's just for the
bling.

I don't think that much has changed, really. When I was growing up,
relatively few of my friends were interested in aviation. The ones that
are interested as adults are turned off by the cost; I know a large number
of people that investigated flying and realized they couldn't afford it;
a smaller but sigificant number that started their license but ran out
of money. I actually got my license, but the costs made it so I don't
fly anymore.

There is nothing I would like to see more than a resurgence in the interest
in GA. I don't see any new investment in anything related to general
aviation, except from government. Private airports are now housing
developments. Businesses depending upon GA are folding up. The only "new"
buildings or improvements I see in my area have been put up by state or
local government. That's better than nothing, but I'd rather see the engine
of private enterprise doing these things.

The reason I believe that happened was that there is very little money
to be made in aviation; it seems like most people do it as a labor of
love. Maybe more planes will help that out; I guess we'll have to see.

--Ken

In article ,
Dylan Smith wrote:
Kids can't wander onto an airport, at least not my home base. I have to
drive through a manned security gate and present ID.

For each airfield like that there are 100 you can just wander up to.

While I think that ratio might be a bit off (I'd put it at more like
10-20 "free love" airfields versus 1 "armed camp" airfield), it's been
my experience that the airfields you can walk up to are ghost towns
that are grim, depressing places. I'm not saying that vibrant
airfields of yesteryear don't exist (I've encountered a few
counter-examples myself), but they sure do seem to be rare. What's
more common is the broken-down, one horse airport who's runway is only
home to few tumbleweeds. Not exactly the sort of places to encourage
young aviators.

--Ken

Not exactly the sort of places to encourage
young aviators.


Our local FBO (and I use that term lightly), seems to do everything it can
to discourage new pilots. My kid's elementary school used to take all the
kindergartners to the airport and let them see a plane, sit it one, talk on
the headsets, etc. Now the FBO has informed them that they can't do that
anymore due to "security issues" involving 9/11. This is a very rural
non-controlled field with about 40 planes based there (but they are the only
show in town).

In the last four years, I've sent 3 people in to talk with them about
learning to fly. All 3 were treated like complete outsiders and all three
had the same conversation. I went in with the last one and sat in the lobby
area while he tried to talk to them about lessons. The conversation went
something like this:

FBO - (Sitting behind counter talking amoungst themselves)

Potential Student - (Walks in, stands at counter for 2 minutes waiting for
someone to help, then finally asks the guys sitting there "Excuse
me....I'm interested in learning to fly"

FBO - "Great! We rent our Cherokees for $75 wet and the CFI will cost
another $30 per hour"

PS - (not knowing what a Cherokee wet or a CFI is) "ooook....."

Awkward pause where the FBO needs to take over the conversation.....they
don't...they start chatting with each other again.

PS - "Excuse me, ok...so that's $105 per hour....how many hours do I need?"

FBO - "40" -

PS (still the one driving the conversation) - "Well, what do I need to get
started?"

FBO (seeming to be tiring of all the questions) - "Money" (they all
laugh).....Well you need to buy the student kit, which is $195 for your
ground school, then you'll need a good headset for about $350. Then you'll
need to plan on flying for an hour at least twice a week. If you can't fly
twice a week, your wasting your time"

PS - "Twice a week? I don't have time to do that. And that's also $210/wk.
Or $800/month! I can't afford that"

FBO - (and this is a direct quote) "Then I guess you'll never be a pilot"

PS - Leaves in disgust and to this day hasn't even taken an intro flight.

Greg Esres wrote:

Anyone else had clearance such as this? (I'm not quite comfortable
with it. Just seems wrong.)

When I learned to fly it was quite regular when operating from the
smaller parallel runway to be given a similar clearance if we were
the only ones using it.

Late night at Tulsa International, take-off on 18R, stop and
go 36R, back to 18R stop and go, you get night current real
quick. Take-off, turn base-final.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
| Greg Esres wrote:
|
| Anyone else had clearance such as this? (I'm not quite
comfortable
| with it. Just seems wrong.)
|
| When I learned to fly it was quite regular when operating
from the
| smaller parallel runway to be given a similar clearance if
we were
| the only ones using it.
|

On 2006-05-13, Jeff wrote:
Potential Student - (Walks in, stands at counter for 2 minutes waiting for
someone to help, then finally asks the guys sitting there "Excuse
me....I'm interested in learning to fly"

snip

The trouble is that people who are good at business don't run FBOs
because they realise (being good at spotting worthwhile business
opportunities) that the FBO business is not a good one to be in. So you
tend to get people who love aviation running them - nothing wrong with
that - but who have no clue about how to run a business or what
"customer service" means. Yes, you've got exceptions to that - I've
known people who are the exception - but guess what, they moved on to
something that will actually pay their living costs and have money left
over to go flying sooner or later.

There are some exceptions of course. But most of the people who do
business well and love aviation set up in some other more profitable market
because they realise they'll get a LOT more flying in that way.

Don't get me started on the owners of private airfields - most of them
seem to be hell-bent on driving their customers away with either hostile
attitudes, or they are the sort who promises to do things and never does
them or even worse - a combination of both. Again there are exceptions
but they are rare.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...

Don't get me started on the owners of private airfields - most of them
seem to be hell-bent on driving their customers away with either hostile
attitudes, or they are the sort who promises to do things and never does
them or even worse - a combination of both. Again there are exceptions
but they are rare.

The exceptions are extremely rare. My guess is those that run FBOs and
private airports wouldn't last a week in any other business. Is this a
legacy problem or do people that have no idea about customer service and
customer satisfaction just somehow end up in the aviation business?

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
m...
The exceptions are extremely rare. My guess is those that run FBOs and
private airports wouldn't last a week in any other business. Is this a
legacy problem or do people that have no idea about customer service and
customer satisfaction just somehow end up in the aviation business?

As opposed to the 98% of businesses outside the aviation industry that can't
(won't) do customer service?

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

On 2006-05-16, Matt Barrow wrote:
As opposed to the 98% of businesses outside the aviation industry that can't
(won't) do customer service?

Oh, they do that because they are giant corporations with near
monopolies. The vast majority of small businesses (and most GA
businesses are small businesses) have good customer service because they
will die without it. But many FBOs don't - the owner is an enthusiast,
not someone with business sense or people skills by and large, and it's
staffed mainly by people who are trying to get into the airlines as fast
as they can - not people who have any interest in the continued health
of the business.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2006-05-16, Matt Barrow wrote:
As opposed to the 98% of businesses outside the aviation industry that
can't
(won't) do customer service?

Oh, they do that because they are giant corporations with near
monopolies.

Let's see - the one's on my s&%t-list this week is Verizon (some monopoly),
the local auto shop that changed the oil on my wife's car (didn't tighten
the oil filter and it leaked all over creation...denied it, too), a
restaurant (non-chain) in North Platte, NE that we stopped at (waitess was
evidently on drugs, as apparently was the manager), the local phone company
(QWEST) that also provides ISP services (changed out an email server at
8:00AM; was going to do it at 1:00AM but they couldn't get it right. They
said nothing was wrong, but a 35 MB file took an hour to download, called
the region office in Minneapolis and they finally admitted the problem).

In sum, crappy service and idiot excuses are not only the domain of large
companies, it's the American attitude.

The vast majority of small businesses (and most GA
businesses are small businesses) have good customer service because they
will die without it.

Hmmm...an FBO as the sole provider at an airport or one other FBO. That
sounds like...well, a monopoly.

But many FBOs don't - the owner is an enthusiast,
not someone with business sense or people skills by and large, and it's
staffed mainly by people who are trying to get into the airlines as fast
as they can - not people who have any interest in the continued health
of the business.

And many corporations are run by executives that are trying to run up their
stock options. Bean counters that are trying to pare a nickel here and a
dime there. Ever notice that in the old days it was nickel and dime, now
it's $5 there and $10, or $20 there? Hardly worth complaining about when it
means going through nine levels of phone menus to correct THEIR mistake on
YOUR time.

In any case, it's very short sighted. Maybe we can outsource our whole
economy. Better still, how about outsourcing Congress to China. Hey, it's
"The American Way"!!