Flying through Canadian airspace

In a previous article, "Denny" said:
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Most of this story seems to indicate that you expect a VFR flight plan to
work exactly the same as an IFR flight plan. It never has, and post 9/11
it's been even worse for cross border operations.

Even before 9/11, you *always* have had to open and close the VFR flight
plan with FSS, and request flight following from ATC. They're separate
functions. ROC Approach always insisted that you have a flight plan on
file before they'd give you flight following, and when I'd mention that
here people accused me of lying or being mistaken. Without the VFR flight
plan, they'd refuse to hand you off but turn you lose and maybe give you a
frequency to contact for the next facility. Even with the flight plan,
you'd sometimes get turned loose. When NavCanada was just taking over in
Canada, Toronto would refuse to take VFR hand-offs from Buffalo or
Rochester, and you'd either have to dive beneath their airspace or go
around.

When I went to places in Canada outside of Toronto, it was nice because
Canadian towers open and close VFR flight plans. But I never quite got
the hang of getting flight following from Ottawa - they'd always just turn
me lose and then I'd try to raise Wheeler Sack as I got closer to the
border. I've been told that the secret is to file a "Controlled VFR"
flight plan, but I've never tried it because I got my IFR rating before I
got a chance.

Post 9/11, you still have to be on a flight plan of some sort to cross the
border, and now you have to be talking to ATC as well. So I just find it
a ton easier to file IFR rather than deal with all "will he hand me off,
or won't he, only his bartender knows for sure" crap.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - spaf (1992)

I speak AIM fluently...
There is a turf war between the controllers union and the privatized
FSS.. All the AIM manuals in the world will not get ATC to
cooperate..

The solution is simple, file IFR and ATC is under the microscope and
cannot simply drop a flight in international airspace to get even with
Lockheed Martin...

denny

Boy, Denny, you really need to brush up on what a VFR Flight Plan is, and
isn't. There is NO CONNECTION between a VFR Plan and Flight Following.

Perhaps it's also time for you to do a BFR -- if your grasp on procedures is
that shaky, your flying skills are also probably not up to scratch.


On 25 May 2006 05:20:30 -0700, "Denny" wrote:

Well, we did the flight from Saginaw to Cleveland and back... As
promised I did file VFR and I will never, never, never, pinch me, n e
v e r, do that again... What a ghastly experience... And this is
from a fella who has been flying the ATC system for over 40 years - but
hasn't filed a VFR flight plan within that time frame (that I can
remember)..
Anyway, Out on the ramp I phoned and got the Lansing FSS... Rattled off
the usual flight plan info... Waited for the usual CRAFT response and
then gotcha #1 rose up... (I should have known right then!) She didn't
read back the plan!!!
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Well, OK I can live with that, and I know where I'm going, I hope she
remembered... So we saddled up and turned lose those thumpin 150 HP
engines on Fat Albert... Airborne I coach DL through the mechanics of
contacting the nearest ATC and asking for the flight plan to be
opened... Gotcha #2 grins at us... Saginaw approach says they "don't"
open VFR flight plans... (Note, they didn't say can't, just don't - can
you spell 'controllers union versus the privatized FSS'?)
"You will have to talk to FSS.", click and silence...

Well, OK Martha Jane, I DO know how to talk to FSS... So we dial up FSS
and after a few calls get the nice lady... "Oh, your flight plan is
opened."...
So, back to Mr. Wonderful at Saginaw Approach...
highly condensed
"57 Pop is back with you and the VFR flight plan to Cleveland is
opened."
"OK, I can give you flight followingheh, heh, heh Squawk
'snookered', maintain 3500, blah, blah, blah...".... picture me with
sour expression
So, a few miles later we get told, "Leaving my airspace, radar services
terminated, squawk VFR.. You may be able to contact Flint." click...
silence...
Wearily I call Flint Approach... "Who are you, where are you, how high
are you (by now I wish)... And while he didn't say, why are you
bothering me, the attitude was there... The instant you say VFR flight
plan, the temperature in the voice drops 10 degrees...

The Coupe De Grass came on the return leg North lots of grubby details
condensed After Cleveland Approach pinged me to FSS and they ponged me
back, Cleveland finally, grudgingly, gave me a squawk,then waited until
I just touched Canadian Airspace and with a gloat in the voice says:
drum roll you all know what's coming
"Leaving my airspace, return to VFR, have a nice day.", click!
At that point I became annoyed and bluntly told ATC, "Wait a minute
Jack... I am in international airspace and you don't just dump me."
"Well, you can try contacting Detroit." Knowing full well that I am out
of range for Detroit

So, we spent the next 15+ miles calling Detroit... When I finally
reached them it was the three stooges who-what-why-go away routine all
over...

This morning I called the Great Lakes FSDO and spoke to an OPS
specialist... At first she gave me the party line... "tsk, tsk, I
don't know how that could happen, after all a VFR flight plan and
flight following are different programs."
After a bit she warmed up and finally told me, "Well Lockheed Martin
took over FSS and everything is changing and we don't know what ATC is
doing or why."

So, there you have it folks... File VFR and you become a scab walking
into the middle of a sit down strike... Beats me... I have been
banging around airports for over 60 years and flying the ATC system for
over 40 years, and I don't have a clue what to do...

denny

In a previous article, "Denny" said:
I speak AIM fluently...
There is a turf war between the controllers union and the privatized
FSS.. All the AIM manuals in the world will not get ATC to
cooperate..

Except what you are describing is the way VFR flight plans have worked for
at least 10 years before FSS was privatized.

Boy, those ATC guys are amazing if they could have predicted that FSS
would be privatized 10 years before it happened!

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Mentally update my CV, paying special attention to the bits
about how to say "Was Fired For Being A Prat" in a positive light.
-- Eric the Read's bad day

"Jay Somerset " wrote

Perhaps it's also time for you to do a BFR -- if your grasp on procedures
is
that shaky, your flying skills are also probably not up to scratch.

Having a bad day, Jay?

That is quite a leap, accusing him of having poor flying skills, because he
was doing something (flying across the border) that he does not do
frequently. A giant leap.
--
Jim in NC

On Thu, 25 May 2006 18:21:46 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Jay Somerset " wrote

Perhaps it's also time for you to do a BFR -- if your grasp on procedures
is
that shaky, your flying skills are also probably not up to scratch.

Having a bad day, Jay?

That is quite a leap, accusing him of having poor flying skills, because he
was doing something (flying across the border) that he does not do
frequently. A giant leap.


Not much of a leap at all. If one is significanty deficient on one area,
the probablility of being similarily deficient in a closely related area is
quite high.

On Thu, 25 May 2006 13:51:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

In a previous article, "Denny" said:
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Most of this story seems to indicate that you expect a VFR flight plan to
work exactly the same as an IFR flight plan. It never has, and post 9/11
it's been even worse for cross border operations.

Oh, but they used to and not all that long ago, at least in my
experience. Now maybe it was just the areas in which I've been flying.

I'd file VFR say from 3BS to Muncie. I'd contact MBS approach,
sometimes they'd activate the flight plane for me and some times I'd
have to call FSS. On landing I'd tell the tower I'd like to close the
flight plan. Some times they would and some times they'd tell me to
call FSS. I think it just depended on how busy they were. They'd
hand me off to the next sector (Lansing) and so on. It was not
uncommon to end up talking to center as well. The handoffs were
exactly like the ones I receive IFR. The only difference was I only
needed to notify them when changing altitude and direction instead of
having them tell me when to do so.. However I usually put it in the
form of "Eight Thirty Three Romeo needs to start down for Muncie, or
would like to turn heading such and such. More often than not I'd
hear the word "approved".

No, there were no clearances and not as many instructions, nor did I
have to except a bunch of instructions at the outer marker. :-))
In particular I didn't have to expect odd routing around busy
airspace. But until recently I found very little difference in
talking to ATC whether IFR or VFR.

Actually I did receive directions one time. I was talking to Ft Wayne
app coming from the north and headed for Muncie. The weather was
crappy and I was no more than a couple thousand AGL. I was also
headed directly toward the center of the airport. They finally cam on
when I could see the airport ahead and said, "We really need to have
you turn heading 090 for traffic avoidance. I replied I'd be glad to
and would they please let me know when I could turn back to 180. Just
a minute of two later they came back on with " Eight Thirty Three
Romeo, Turn to heading 180 approved." It may not have been standard,
but it worked..

Now if VFR it's often difficult to squeeze in edgewise to receive an
acknowledgement and I don't get handed off to any one. However I find
if I put myself at altitudes through busy airspace but outside their
actual air space I get noticed and they usually get helpful. Just put
your self about a 1000 feet above the top of a control zone or near a
climb corridor that is not specifically in their airspace. Traveling
near 200 MPH and close enough to get noticed seems to work. OTOH with
a could deck that keeps me low it's a whole different world.

I give them my altitude and heading which will put me a thousand feet
above the class D or C and I may hear "stay out of the control zone"
to which I reply "I'll be passing directly over the airport 1000 feet
above the control zone. That usually results in a repeat of the "stay
out of the class C", probably with the hope I'll change course.

If they get cranky and tell me that's busy airspace I just reply,
"that's why I asked for flight following".

OTOH I could file IFR, Then they can route me around and way out in to
boonies for traffic avoidance. Been there and done that. On the one
occasion I'd have canceled IFR and just stayed up on top, but we were
headed for OSH and I'd have been too close to air file to get back in
the system.

However I agree with Denny. At least for me VFR is treated quite
differently than it used to be.



Even before 9/11, you *always* have had to open and close the VFR flight
plan with FSS, and request flight following from ATC. They're separate

Some times yes and some times no, but not always. Maybe they were just
being nice, but I found different areas to operate differently. Some
times quite differently.

functions. ROC Approach always insisted that you have a flight plan on
file before they'd give you flight following, and when I'd mention that

A number of those flights to MIE were not on flight plans yet I had
flight following all the way complete with hand offs.

here people accused me of lying or being mistaken. Without the VFR flight
plan, they'd refuse to hand you off but turn you lose and maybe give you a
frequency to contact for the next facility. Even with the flight plan,

That does happen, flight plan or no flight plan.
I had to leave the Deb at Muncie for a week and a friend flew the old
Cherokee 180 down. He was actually 2000 feet above me. I was handed
off between approaches and even centers. He was turned loose and had
to call up the next approach.

He started out about 15 minutes ahead of me so I head most of his
conversations and call ups. I'd get handed off and he'd get turned
loose. I have no idea why.

I flew down to Lansing IL recently and it was difficult to find any
approach that would talk to me.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

you'd sometimes get turned loose. When NavCanada was just taking over in
Canada, Toronto would refuse to take VFR hand-offs from Buffalo or
Rochester, and you'd either have to dive beneath their airspace or go
around.

When I went to places in Canada outside of Toronto, it was nice because
Canadian towers open and close VFR flight plans. But I never quite got
the hang of getting flight following from Ottawa - they'd always just turn
me lose and then I'd try to raise Wheeler Sack as I got closer to the
border. I've been told that the secret is to file a "Controlled VFR"
flight plan, but I've never tried it because I got my IFR rating before I
got a chance.

Post 9/11, you still have to be on a flight plan of some sort to cross the
border, and now you have to be talking to ATC as well. So I just find it
a ton easier to file IFR rather than deal with all "will he hand me off,
or won't he, only his bartender knows for sure" crap.

On Fri, 26 May 2006 19:58:54 -0400, Jay Somerset
wrote:

On Thu, 25 May 2006 18:21:46 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Jay Somerset " wrote

Perhaps it's also time for you to do a BFR -- if your grasp on procedures
is
that shaky, your flying skills are also probably not up to scratch.

Having a bad day, Jay?

That is quite a leap, accusing him of having poor flying skills, because he
was doing something (flying across the border) that he does not do
frequently. A giant leap.


Not much of a leap at all. If one is significanty deficient on one area,
the probablility of being similarily deficient in a closely related area is
quite high.

The change was in the system,not in the pilot.
Over the years I had come to expect receive similar treatment from the
system whether VFR or IFR. Only on more recent flights have I seen a
major difference.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
The change was in the system,not in the pilot.
Over the years I had come to expect receive similar treatment from the
system whether VFR or IFR. Only on more recent flights have I seen a
major difference.

From which system? Canada or US? And over how many years?

Granted, my first flight into Canada was "only" 15 years ago. But even
then, the US system did not generally involve ATC being willing to deal with
VFR flight plans. Doing so required them to negotiate with the FSS directly
(as opposed to dealing with an IFR flight plan that was already transmitted
to their computers), and was an additional work item they never wanted to
deal with.

The only time I was able to get ATC to close a VFR flight plan for me was
when the US Customs agent that was supposed to meet me had overslept and I
was left sitting in my airplane for 30 minutes until the guy finally showed
up and let me and my passengers out of the airplane. I was unable to reach
the FSS on their local RCO frequency while sitting on the ground (guess it
wasn't that local) and ATC thankfully was willing to talk to the FSS and
have them close my VFR flight plan, as well as phone Customs to try to
figure out why my scheduled Customs agent wasn't present.

Canada on the other hand has always been willing to deal with VFR and IFR
flight plans in the same way. As far as I know, they *are* handled the same
way for them, without the FSS-disconnect that exists in the US for VFR
flight plans. Canada ATC has always closed my inbound flight plan for me,
and opened my outbound flight plan for me. I have even filed a VFR flight
plan through the Canada ATC once when I had a mechanical issue and I was
stuck out on the airport ramp when the plane was finally ready to go. I
could've walked back into the terminal and phoned, but they let me file on
the ground control frequency through them.

As an aside (not related to your comment about "over the years", obviously),
I have not made an international flight since before 9/11/2001, so I don't
have first-hand information about how the new flight plan requirements work.
But I haven't read anything to suggest they are a LOT different from the way
they used to be, and haven't seen anything to suggest that US ATC is now
handling VFR flight plans in the same way that they handle IFR flight plans.
Someone flying internationally and expecting US ATC to open and close their
VFR flight plans just hasn't done their homework.

Pete

Even before 9/11, you *always* have had to open and close the VFR flight
plan with FSS, and request flight following from ATC. They're separate
functions.

One semi-interesting observation: This isn't true in the Washington
ADIZ. There, a VFR ADIZ flight plan IS opened by ATC, after first
filing with flight service.

Funny that some things actually work better under the ADIZ.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"