Removing Ethanol from Gas?

MoGas could be used in gasoline powered vehicles and
equipment on the airport, to use the 8,000 gallons in a
reasonable time. Since many airports are city operated,
police cars and such could also use the fuel farm at the
airport.



"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
| The problem is not getting gasoline without ethanol. I
can get as many tank
| cars as you wish and have it delivered to you by Friday
morning. The
| problem is exactly that, you get a tank car (or an 8000
gallon tanker) full,
| no less. Using 8000 gallons of a fuel that isn't quite as
stable over time
| as avgas is the corker.
|
| When we used to be able to go down to the local gas
station with a 55 gallon
| drum or tank, it was really quite easy. Getting a small
airport to burn
| 8000 gallons of auto fuel is not. Not to mention the
airport having to make
| a new storage tank (can we say permits and lots of time?)
and pay for the
| project out of "profits".
|
| Jim
|
|
|
| Ethanol is usually blended at the time of being loaded
on a tanker
| truck, so if the local or state law allows, it is very
easy to order a
| tanker full of auto fuel without ethanol. It's not added
at the
| refinery.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:7MqCg.34$SZ3.3@dukeread04...
MoGas could be used in gasoline powered vehicles and
equipment on the airport, to use the 8,000 gallons in a
reasonable time. Since many airports are city operated,
police cars and such could also use the fuel farm at the
airport.


That's actually a very promising solution; at least until the mandate
problem can be successfully addressed.

Peter


"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
| The problem is not getting gasoline without ethanol. I
can get as many tank
| cars as you wish and have it delivered to you by Friday
morning. The
| problem is exactly that, you get a tank car (or an 8000
gallon tanker) full,
| no less. Using 8000 gallons of a fuel that isn't quite as
stable over time
| as avgas is the corker.
|
| When we used to be able to go down to the local gas
station with a 55 gallon
| drum or tank, it was really quite easy. Getting a small
airport to burn
| 8000 gallons of auto fuel is not. Not to mention the
airport having to make
| a new storage tank (can we say permits and lots of time?)
and pay for the
| project out of "profits".
|
| Jim
|
|
|
| Ethanol is usually blended at the time of being loaded
on a tanker
| truck, so if the local or state law allows, it is very
easy to order a
| tanker full of auto fuel without ethanol. It's not added
at the
| refinery.
|
|

I'm afraid you don't quite get the picture, Jim.

Actually, most "small" country airports are county owned and operated, but
your premise of municipal vehicles fueling up is still legitimate. Whether
you call them police cars or sheriff cruisers isn't the point.

What IS the point is that the airport (for it's own self-preservation) is
usually located a few miles from town. To tell every cop car, road grader,
utility vehicle that they are going to have to go out to the airport to fuel
isn't feasible.

Nor is it feasible to have civilians (airplane owners) go to a municipal
fuel farm in town and fill up tanks or jugs. First of all, municipalities
like counties aren't set up to sell anything to the general public, fuel
included. You'd have to generate such a hodge-podge of checks and balances
(yes, the treasurer is a real witch when it comes to accountability of
funds) that any savings on fuel just went down the dumper.

COuld we do it by patch and mend? Possibly. Would it pay for itself? Not
unless the mogas sold for approximately what avgas is selling for.

Jim


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:7MqCg.34$SZ3.3@dukeread04...
MoGas could be used in gasoline powered vehicles and
equipment on the airport, to use the 8,000 gallons in a
reasonable time. Since many airports are city operated,
police cars and such could also use the fuel farm at the
airport.

The point is that GOVERNMENT control of supply always screws
up the system. So, when it gets bad, the herd in the big
cities demand more government control. That will fix
everything, right, NOT.



"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
| I'm afraid you don't quite get the picture, Jim.
|
| Actually, most "small" country airports are county owned
and operated, but
| your premise of municipal vehicles fueling up is still
legitimate. Whether
| you call them police cars or sheriff cruisers isn't the
point.
|
| What IS the point is that the airport (for it's own
self-preservation) is
| usually located a few miles from town. To tell every cop
car, road grader,
| utility vehicle that they are going to have to go out to
the airport to fuel
| isn't feasible.
|
| Nor is it feasible to have civilians (airplane owners) go
to a municipal
| fuel farm in town and fill up tanks or jugs. First of
all, municipalities
| like counties aren't set up to sell anything to the
general public, fuel
| included. You'd have to generate such a hodge-podge of
checks and balances
| (yes, the treasurer is a real witch when it comes to
accountability of
| funds) that any savings on fuel just went down the dumper.
|
| COuld we do it by patch and mend? Possibly. Would it pay
for itself? Not
| unless the mogas sold for approximately what avgas is
selling for.
|
| Jim
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:7MqCg.34$SZ3.3@dukeread04...
| MoGas could be used in gasoline powered vehicles and
| equipment on the airport, to use the 8,000 gallons in a
| reasonable time. Since many airports are city operated,
| police cars and such could also use the fuel farm at the
| airport.
|
|

COuld we do it by patch and mend? Possibly. Would it pay for itself? Not
unless the mogas sold for approximately what avgas is selling for.

Although I would prefer that it be cheaper, if given a choice I would
buy mogas for my plane if it were available on the field, even if it
were the same price as avgas.

My O-540 simply runs better with it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

wrote in message
ps.com...
The best way to remove ethanol from gas is for us to affect legislation
that would otherwise mandate ethanol in all gasoline, even that used
for off-road use. Most congress people are completely unaware that auto
fuel is used successfully by a large number of aircraft owners and that
ethanol poses a significant safety risk. There are some very powerful
lobbying forces behind the new mandates. It's important that we be
heard, i.e., we participate. Boaters are also affected by ethanol
mandates so it may be helpful to join forces with that community.

-----snipped------

You've summed it up rather well.
The problem appears to be entirely one of mandates, and the solution is to
remove the mandates.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ps.com...
The best way to remove ethanol from gas is for us to affect legislation
that would otherwise mandate ethanol in all gasoline, even that used
for off-road use. Most congress people are completely unaware that auto
fuel is used successfully by a large number of aircraft owners and that
ethanol poses a significant safety risk. There are some very powerful
lobbying forces behind the new mandates. It's important that we be
heard, i.e., we participate. Boaters are also affected by ethanol
mandates so it may be helpful to join forces with that community.

-----snipped------

You've summed it up rather well.
The problem appears to be entirely one of mandates, and the solution is to
remove the mandates.

I'd bet that 99.9% of Congress even knows it is an issue. The AOPA and EAA
better get a letter writing campaign going. It is a lot easier to stop
mandates before they are in place than it is to get one removed.

The biggest issue is the reduction in power. You can regain the power by
rejetting the carb or injectors and assuring sufficient intake airflow, but
then the fuel flow is much higher.....and your range is poor.

The fuel system might need modification to insure all components are
compatible with ethanol. One example is: the O-rings in your fuel tank
selector might not tolerate ethanol, swelling and making the fuel selector
tight or even locked in one position.

Regards,
John Severyn
@KLVK


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Hey Jay,

I added your web site to my links page!

http://www.aircraftdelivery.net/links.htm

On 9 Aug 2006 08:13:11 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his

Then he's most likely doing it illegally as he's not using a know auto
gas which means no STC.

fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

Crazy is not quite the word I'd use.

It's not just those fiberglass tips, seals and O-rings that are
attacked by ethanol. He's looking for far more problems than tip
tanks. BTW he might want to consider where the disolved resin and
some fiberglass went. I wonder what his fuel filter and gascolator
look like inside.


His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Or smart.

Alcohol, in addition to burning cleaner is also an octane booster.
That means even if you sucessfully remove it, you are left with a
lower octane gas and no STC which probably means no insurance.


Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?

And what do you do to raise the octane back up?

Yes there is a relatively easy way to remove alcohol from gas that
just takes a bit of filtering after the process. Remember Alcohol is
hydroscopic.

But I repeat, it's no longer car gas so no STC which probably means no
insurance and how much lower octane can the specific engine handle.

Have a problem and the FAA, Insurance company, and lawyers will not be
on your side.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com