Cloud Flying

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

Why would he question that when he'd just received a report
that the glider was at FL 190 and presumably on an IFR
flight plan and in communication with ATC?

Todd, welcome aboard. Thanks for your input. To answer your question I would have to say, given the altitudes in Chriss' scenario, there would be cause for alarm due to the small difference in the altitudes, and closure rate. Not knowing the accuracy of the story gliders altimeter, I would, if I were driving the large aircraft tell myself that a thirty degree turn off this heading won't hurt anyone .

Is the glider pilot flying off of an altimeter set at zero, or is he
flying GPS altitude, and if he is flying with his altimeter set at
29.92, how far out of tune is his old altimeter that may not have seen
the bench since it was new? Don't know, food for thought, I hope. What
I do know is that altimeters that have not been bench checked in a
while can be waaay off.

I just came from our club, where I talked with one of our members who
has a beautifully installed xponder, with encoder, and all the paper
work to go with it. We also looked at the poh list of approved
equipment.

Going back to Chris's scenario, if the controller had told me that the
glider traffic had an encoder and they had verified his altitude during
his climb, I might feel better, but I cant see this guy, unless he has
a xponder, so I'm still going to make a nice little deviation around
the traffic. I think the more realistic scenario is yours where your in
a window and the possibility of ever coming closer than five miles is
far fetched.

Todd, with regard to your flight where you had 10,000ft separation,
I'm guessing you were flying in a wave window. Would also like to ask
if you use a transponder. Thanks for your input.



--

Oh, for God's sake, snoop. You're really beginning to annoy me. If
you fly IFR as much as you say you do, you hear that every day.
Aircraft A receives a hold down clearance until he is clear of traffic
B above. American was thousands of feet below me, climbing to an
altitude two thousand feet below me. He saw me on his TCAS. There was
no conflict. ATC was providing separation. Everybody was happy.
Geez.

Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Going out to the glider club? That's sounds good. I'll join you.

Chris Fleming, F2

Is the glider pilot flying off of an altimeter set at zero, or is he
flying GPS altitude, and if he is flying with his altimeter set at
29.92,

Come on Snoop you should know the answers to these. The pilot is
instrument rated and as a result has been trained to fly in IFR
airspace. He will set it to 29.92 as he is supposed to.


how far out of tune is his old altimeter that may not have seen
the bench since it was new?

IF flying in Class A airspace (diffenent from Cloud Flying) he will
have a Mode C Transponder that has been checked with in the last 24
months.

Don't know, food for thought, I hope. What
I do know is that altimeters that have not been bench checked in a
while can be waaay off.


Also as is standard procedure the Controll will confirm that
Transponder and the Altimeter coorsponde within a reasonable tolerance.




Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

snoop wrote:
Chris, I'm getting annoyed with this thread too. I've got a note into
Shawn, will give a report after he briefs us. Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge. F2 if your in the Big
D look us up at TSA. And the 135/121 comment really cut deep! Later,
snoop


Snoop,

I don't know where the Region 10 competition is going to be next year,
but maybe I'll see you there.

I can understand your frustration with all of this stuff, but the point
of this forum is to be able to exchange ideas. Don't take any of it as
gospel. You're putting a lot of faith into what Shawn has to say, but
he's not perfect, either. He has repeatedly said that § 61.57 doesn't
apply to single-pilot operations, but it absolutely does. CFAR §
61.57(c)(2)(i) clearly specifies that in order to act as PIC in a
glider under IFR while solo, you need to log at least 3 hours of
instrument time in the last 6 months, of which 1 1/2 must be in gliders
(the other 1 1/2 may be in either airplanes or gliders):

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-
(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried.

Also, don't take everything you read in Soaring Magazine to be gospel
either. In last month's thread on this topic, we discussed Tom
Reesor's letter in the August SOARING magazine. He confidently claimed
that to fly a glider IFR one requires:

1. "The pilot to be instrument rated in single-engine airplanes and
also have a glider rating ... to fly a glider in clouds," and

2. "Gliders flying on instruments are required to have a full gyro
panel."

Neither of which is true. CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a glider
pilot must have an airplane instrument rating to fly a glider IFR, but
it doesn't specify that it needs to be a single-engine class rating:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.

And there is no FAR whatsoever that requires a glider to have a "full
gyro panel." The only gyroscopic instrument that most glider
manufacturers require for cloud flying is a "Turn & Bank Indicator with
Slip Ball."

So what do you do? Read the regs for yourself. I've referenced the
exact FARs to back up everything that I have said. Read your glider's
manual. Is your glider approved for cloud flying? If your glider has
an experimental certificate, read your operating limitations. Did the
FAA approve your glider for cloud flying? And, has your glider
received all of its required inspections?

If, after all of this you have determined that you meet all of the
requirements to fly your glider IFR, you're legal to do so.

So how do you do it? Personally, I don't file a flight plan. I only
use IFR as a tool to climb into the Class A airspace, and I never know
if the mountain wave above El Paso is good enough until I'm airborne.
My climb to 17,000 feet is VFR with El Paso Approach Control, and if
I'm still climbing strong, I'll request a handoff to Albuquerque Center
and request an IFR climb with them. They first verify my transponder
code, position and altitude, then ask for my intentions. I request
altitude blocks in 4,000 foot increments, so the first clearance that I
receive is from 16,000 to FL 200. As I climb and descend, ABQ shifts
the block up and down. My mountain wave flights have all been local in
nature, so my lateral clearance is defined by radials and distances
from El Paso VOR, which I have programmed into my GPS. When I descend
through 17,000 after my wave flight, I cancel IFR. I have never had
any difficulties. In fact, the controllers have always been more than
helpful.

As a side note, I have never, nor do I ever intend, to fly a pure
glider in a cloud. I'll wait for my Nimbus-4DM to arrive before I do
that. Now where's that lottery ticket?

Chris Fleming, F2

snoop wrote:

Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered! I want the blessing of the
people who would otherwise fry me, and you! It would be fun just to be
the celebrity kind of pilot, and forge ahead, but I've found in my
world it's been more enjoyable, to find out the facts, do it right, and
let the feds go after the uninformed.

Chris sounds pretty informed to me and you sound like you're a natural
bureaucrat with a check pilot background. Thank God you weren't on my
seniority list.

You're not looking for information - you want to stop HIM doing it!

If you don't want to do it - DON'T DO IT! Now let it go.

GC

snoop wrote:

...Let's put someone else in
charge of stirring this pot. Todd your in charge.

Nobody's in charge here!!!

Geez! I thought I'd left management pilots behind years ago!

GC

snoop wrote:
Chris, this is the exact reason I'm still looking for the technical
answers. You just made about every working pilot reading your celebrity
dialouge, pass out. "11o'clock 15 miles", your descending out of who
knows what exact altitude, and the big boy is climbing toward you, this
would wake everyone up. I would venture that the captain on that AA
flights' first thought would be, "we're turning now", then he would ask
the center about the accuracy of the gliders' altimeter.

So Snoop, just by replacing the word "glider" in the above exchange
with "your favorite trustworthy aircraft", your whole attitude would
change?

Explain exactly why hearing the work "Lear" for example would make you
feel better?

I'm sure there's a few rotting away at airports that are marginally
airworthy, and might even have an owner who flew IFR 20 years ago, and
is just itchin' to go fly......

Bottom line - if the glider is on a clearance we MUST assume the glider
will behave just as any other aircraft. Because if we don't, then how
on earth can we assume any one of the other aircraft will behave as
well?

This whole discussion is about SOARING in clouds. Except in the
mountains, this means there WILL be a decent clearance between ground,
VMC, and cloudbase. The glider pilot is not concerned with terrain,
because in this situation it IS NOT AN ISSUE. If it were, the glider
pilot likely would not fly. You are clouding the issue by insisting
the glider operation take place at 500' AGL in fog directly over the
tower at DFW.

What we are talking about is operation at say, 6,000' AGL and above in
the middle of Kansas. The only issues are about what is required to be
legal to continue circling up into that nice towering cu. And once
topped out at FL200, the glider pops out the side, then continues on to
the next nice cloud in VMC. The glider pilot has, at all times, the
option to change course and descend if asked by ATC. The controller
and glider pilot COMMUNICATE, and establish an understanding that it
may be possible that the glider will hit sink, but in that case, there
is always the option to change course to stay clear of any traffic
below the glider.

As others have posted, flight in IMC without an autopilot can be
difficult and tiring. The glider is only using the cloud to thermal
up, then glide out the side in order to spend as little time in cloud
as possible. This XC flight has no need of any fancy navigational
equipment beyond a compass, as the pilot is planning to be VMC 95% of
the time.

-Tom
CFIG, PVT ASEL with about 150 hours in airplanes, no instrument
experience, and not planning to fly into clouds anytime soon.

5Z wrote:

....
-Tom
CFIG, PVT ASEL with about 150 hours in airplanes, no instrument
experience, and not planning to fly into clouds anytime soon.

Funny that despite your non existing experience and intention, you seem
to be the only one who actually understands what cloud flying in gliders
is all about.

Stefan

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
snoop wrote:
Chris I would love to turn on a t&b and climb into the cloud, but I
want to know that my bases are covered!

Graeme Cant wrote:
You're not looking for information - you want to stop HIM doing it!
If you don't want to do it - DON'T DO IT! Now let it go.

Come on Graeme - ease off. For U.S. glider pilots the
interface between IFR flights and gliders is a tricky thing
to get right and there are a lot of pitfalls.

I agree with Graeme, in that the negative attitudes expressed in this
thread have consisted primarily of vague warnings, half-informed scare
tactics, and bluster from those who appear to think their ATP's give
them special insight into cloud flying in gliders, while the
constructive posts have tended to come from glider pilots, some of whom
also have a lot of varied flight experience but lack the arrogance. It's
the holier-than-thou attitude that is the most annoying and the least
informative.

Cloud flying in gliders in the US is poorly understood and grossly under
appreciated. The sport could benefit significantly from cloud flying
when properly trained and flown, but as it is the FAA and the SSA have
paid far too little attention. As a result, I must agree with Todd that
the legal pitfalls are substantial. This thread is a small part of
beginning to change USA soaring for the better.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Cloud flying in gliders in the US is poorly understood and grossly under
appreciated. The sport could benefit significantly from cloud flying
when properly trained and flown, but as it is the FAA and the SSA have
paid far too little attention. As a result, I must agree with Todd that
the legal pitfalls are substantial. This thread is a small part of
beginning to change USA soaring for the better.

Jack, where have you been. Jack has summed up the point of this thread
in his last paragraph. "The legal pitfalls are substantial". Bingo.
This was a good walk through the problem. Like we've done many times
over beers at TSA, right Jack. I love you man! Are you bringing the PIK
for Labor Day?

One thing I have to dispell, and disagree with my old friend Jack, and
a couple others. I'm the furthest thing from a "bureacrat". I've never
been a check airman, other than flying with guys doing their first
crossing, or introduction to a new plane. I am the other items
described, an atp, instrument, all that other stuff. So are the four
other working atp/mechanic/pilot types at my club working in the hangar
as we speak on rebuilding another tow plane, or the two very busy
atp/cfig's who do the most instructing at our club. But this
conversation was'nt about who's resume is bigger. This was about the
search for facts.

I know what Jack means by some pilots and their 'holier than thou
attitude". But that wasn't didn't figure in the equation here. Learjet,
757, who cares, we need to look at the numbers. Chris gave us a
scenario to look at. Put Clutch Cargo and his pals Spinner and Paddle
Foot in what ever aircraft is in the scenario, it doesn't matter. Uh,
oh, I think I just gave away my age.

I'm now visiting with Shawn, on the email. Look forward to visiting
with him when he gets back to the states. He's currently putting it on
the line over in Iraq. Weekends here, let's fly!

snoop(mick)