TIS (traffic information service)

Stefan wrote:

Bob Noel schrieb:

I know the advantages from an ATC POV, but what is the advantage for
the aircraft owner?

To be allowed to fly in controlled airspace at all? In Europe, Mode S
will be mandated, because ATC claims Mode C reaches its limits. This
means in the forseeable futu No Mode S, no fly in controlled airspace.

Stefan

We will see. Such a mandate will meet considerable opposition. Same
as GA user fees. Heck, the FAA has not even started any sort of 406
MHh ELT mandate to my knowledge. (USA applicability)

Ron Lee

Larry Dighera schrieb:

Would that Mode S requirement be a result of the implement ion of
outsource ATC?

No, why should it? Mode S implementation is very expensive for ATC. It's
as I said: They say that in certain regions iof Europe, Mode C reaches
its limits. As I don't know anything about it, I have to believe it.

From http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/public/faq/faq.html:
Mode S is being deployed because the current SSR systems have reached
the limit of their operational capability. This takes the form of
exceeded maximum number of targets, RF pollution, lost targets, identity
errors and Mode A code shortage. Mode S is therefore a necessary SSR
replacement in airspace subject to high levels of traffic density.

Stefan

Ron,

We will see. Such a mandate will meet considerable opposition.


Not in Europe. We have seen, here. It has met considerable opposition -
and has been mandated nonetheless.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Mark Manes" wrote

FSM where I'mbased had TIS for the first year after I installed the Garmin
but theyupgraded the radar (to ASR 11, I believe) and are not going to turn
TIS onfor whatever reason.MarkN28409WC5I"Andrew Gideon"
wrote in messagenewsan.2006.08.30.23.39.09.697508@gideon. org... On Tue,
29 Aug 2006 23:34:27 -0400, Doug Vetter wrote: The FAA is continuing to
invest in Mode-S radars (the ASR-11 is replacing the ASR 7, 8, and 9 units
that currently support TIS), so an investmentin the airborne component is
still a wise move and will be for MANY years. Aside from TIS, what is the
benefit (either to the pilot or ATC) of modeS? - Andrew

Dood, buy a space, or sumpthin' ! g
--
Jim in NC

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:47:21 +0200, Stefan wrote:

Mode S is being deployed because the current SSR systems have reached the
limit of their operational capability. This takes the form of exceeded
maximum number of targets, RF pollution, lost targets, identity errors and
Mode A code shortage. Mode S is therefore a necessary SSR replacement in
airspace subject to high levels of traffic density.

I've some difficulty understanding this.

From reading here, I've been lead to believe that aviation is more common
in the US than in the EU. Given this, I have to assume that a locality
like the KEWR/KLGA/KJJK area would have a higher aircraft density than
anywhere in Europe.

No?

If so, then how can a locality like that not be suffering from the same
problem as that described in the cited text? I fly in this area, and I've
never noted identity errors nor have I ever been denied service due to an
insufficiency of mode A codes.

- Andrew

In article ,
Stefan wrote:

I know the advantages from an ATC POV, but what is the advantage for
the aircraft owner?

To be allowed to fly in controlled airspace at all? In Europe, Mode S
will be mandated, because ATC claims Mode C reaches its limits. This
means in the forseeable futu No Mode S, no fly in controlled airspace.

Sorry. I should have clarified that my question was applicable to the US NAS.
I do understand the European requirements for Mode S, 8.33, ACAS, etc etc.
But in the US, Mode S is still just a solution looking for a problem.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Andrew Gideon wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:34:27 -0400, Doug Vetter wrote:

The FAA is continuing to invest in Mode-S radars (the ASR-11 is replacing
the ASR 7, 8, and 9 units that currently support TIS), so an investment in
the airborne component is still a wise move and will be for MANY years.

Aside from TIS, what is the benefit (either to the pilot or ATC) of mode S?

- Andrew

Here are a few advantages of Mode-S over Mode-A:

1) Selective interrogations. Because the mode-s airborne component has
a unique address, any ground or airborne interrogator may request your
particular transponder (and only your transponder) to reply. It learns
your unique ID by using a broadcast request called "all call".

This is helpful on a technical level where the radar is attempting to
acquire the position of many aircraft that may be on or near the same
radial from the radar site (say, for example, three aircraft on the 237
radial from the radar antenna at 5, 10, and 40 miles away). The result
is less of a chance for ghosting and other radar anomalies. For
example, I used to have a problem when talking to Phili approach near
the Yardley VOR where they used to report a ghost image of my aircraft
about a mile away. They haven't reported the problem since I upgraded
to Mode-S.

This increases the distance at which a transponder may be identified
(thus increasing the effective range of the radar) because the site can
keep the aircraft at 5 and 10 miles quiet while it listens for a reply
from the aircraft 40 miles out. There are some practical limitations to
this benefit, mostly caused by the continued use of mode-a transponders,
but hopefully that won't be the case forever.

2) Support for Ground mode, which replies only with the unique ID
(Mode-S ID or Tail Number) and a software flag that tells the
interrogator the unit is on the ground. It does NOT respond with the
currently-entered squawk code (1200 or otherwise).

This is a nice feature simply because it helps identify your aircraft to
ground radar (like that deployed for testing at Providence, RI), and
because it prevents the need to turn the transponder off to prevent
squawking an old code after landing (most important to IFR pilots).

The great thing about the 330 in particular is that the unit switches
modes automatically based on either a landing gear position switch or
(in the case of our fixed gear 172) the speed of the aircraft as derived
from a GPS' serial data interface. It even knows whether to switch from
ALT to GND or from ALT to STBY, based on recent activity, or so said a
Garmin tech rep.

3) Although this is not unique to the 330 or Mode-S, I mention it
because I've seen the test results with my own eyes on my 330 --
specifically, the ability to respond to a interrogation rate at 100% of
the theoretical maximum, while most older "analog" transponders can only
manage 40% of that rate before becoming saturated.

The ability of a transponder to handle a high reply rate will become
more important as more aircraft are equipped with systems such as TCAS
and Skywatch that actively interrogate targets much in the same way
ground facilities do.

For more info, check out the 330 review on my site. Click through:

Aviation-Articles-Reviews-Garmin 396

-Doug

--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

Andrew,

If so, then how can a locality like that not be suffering from the same
problem as that described in the cited text?


Excellent question. That's why many have doubts about Eurocontrol's
claims. But it's all too late...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:32:47 -0400, Doug Vetter wrote:

The ability of a transponder to handle a high reply rate will become more
important as more aircraft are equipped with systems such as TCAS and
Skywatch that actively interrogate targets much in the same way ground
facilities do.

Let's assume that a [mode c] transponder is being interrogated at a rate
higher than that at which it can respond. Does this matter? If the
transponder is responding as quickly as it can (let's pick a hypothetic
10/second), while it is receiving [a hypothetic] 20 interrogations/second,
won't each interrogator still see the 10 responses per second and
therefore "see" responses to its own interrogations?

Or is there some unique mapping from a specific interrogation to the
specific reply?

- Andrew

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:47:21 +0200, Stefan
wrote in :

Larry Dighera schrieb:

Would that Mode S requirement be a result of the implemention of
outsource ATC?

No, why should it?

Because the corporation providing ATC services under contract to the
government(s) thinks it's a good idea?

Mode S implementation is very expensive for ATC.

Perhaps the ATC contractor can get the funds necessary to implement
Mode S equipment installation from the government(s), and then use the
added functionality provided by Mode S to enhance their revenue stream
in the future.

It's as I said: They say that in certain regions iof Europe, Mode C reaches
its limits. As I don't know anything about it, I have to believe it.

Either believe it, or do the research necessary to verify the
allegation.

From http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/public/faq/faq.html:
Mode S is being deployed because the current SSR systems have reached
the limit of their operational capability. This takes the form of
exceeded maximum number of targets, RF pollution, lost targets, identity
errors and Mode A code shortage. Mode S is therefore a necessary SSR
replacement in airspace subject to high levels of traffic density.


Can European airspace possibly be more congested than that in the US,
say Chicago or Los Angeles?