The SSA-OLC

Doug, do you mind exposing your credibility by pointing to us which
flight you are claiming that I posted under Brazil???

Ramy

Doug Haluza wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Excellent points, KM.
I saw a comment from the originator of the olc, Mr. Reiner, that he
"find this development (meaning the fact that the SSA has changed the
rules in this respect)
also very sad".
Yes, you can post under any country and club you wish and bypass the
SSA-OLC. Some of us considering doing it, some already are.
Also you can post any length of flight, there are many who post local
flights as well. And 200-300 miles is not a short flight...

Ramy

Ramy, why don't you post the whole quote in context so we can interpret
it for ourselves, instead of giving us your obviously biased
interpretation. The SSA-OLC team has been in constant contact with the
OLC-i team, including Mr. Reiner Rose, so he is well aware of the
situation, and he has not expressed such reservations to us. I will let
him speak for himself, though.

Also your statement about posting under any country is incorrect. The
flights you made from Truckee that you claimed to Brazil were caught by
the OLC-i admin, and moved back to the US. His email to me indicated
that he was quite annoyed about this. So please stop, and do not
encourage others to do the same.

Also, would you please disclose if you had any contact with KM before
he made the post you so wholehartedly endorsed here.

KM wrote:
I use a Cambridge model 20 with version 6.0 and
this reports both GPS and pressure altitudes.I have never flown my ship
above 17300 feet, and yet on days with a low altimeter, my box has
shown on or about 18K.Now of course this is not a safety issue because
ATC will not assign FL180 to IFR traffic on days with low pressure, but
I dont like the thought of having to explain this to the guy that typed
the "Sunset" memo.

You won't have anything to explain, because you didn't bust 18,000' msl.
Your logger records pressure altitude and GPS altitude, but _not_ msl
altitude (what your altimeter reads). The pressure altitude from the
logger file must be corrected for the barometric pressure during the
flight to determine your altitude, and this will show you were at 17,300
(for the flight mentioned).

Another concern is the lateral part of the box.I use Aero Explorer 1.1
(and I am not very good with any of this stuff yet), and I do not have
any type of map feature.All of the turn points are just dots on a white
backround and there is no reference to any airspace.What would happen
if you flew across a TFR (Inavertantly of course) or something and the
Feds wanted to see the flight log? Would the SSA cheerfully hand it
over?

They wouldn't have to, because YOU posted it to the OLC, and the FAA
could simply download it like any other person visiting the site. If you
were lucky, the airspace violation would be notice and reported by
someone in time for you to remove the flight before the Feds noticed it.

Now the main gist of my post Paul, was that I am amazed amount of
infighting on R.A.S. over the SSA-OLC.I thought it would be prudent to
post straight to the OLC in Germany and forgo all of this.

The controversy here doesn't affect the big majority of OLC posters, who
don't even know there is any controversy unless they read it here. It's
too bad your introduction to the OLC started during this period - in
this case, ignorance would be bliss. As a pilot that intends to fly with
careful attention to the regs, none of this is pertinent to you, so if
you find it upsetting instead of interesting or educational, I hope you
will just ignore the thread.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

KM,

Good points and observations,

"KM" wrote in message
ups.com...

I am new to the R.A.S

I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of the
loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my opinions
here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over R.A.S and turns
it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics.

we have a active Yahoo group
where pilots post flights during the season.

Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be
scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the
community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering
themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the
rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one will
tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from? Wow... what
a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly lax here on OLC
since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule. Certainly your Yahoo
group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part. Good thing you have
mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed soon. What is the URL?

This is not a contest, just
a way to report on the local happenings.

Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so different
is the "C" in its name.

judging by the gist of
most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for
educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest.

Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people
use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a hard
core contest.

How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US,

Beats me!

and why did they change its intent?

Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what we
see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you see.

Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs"

Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA officials
pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of FARs".

Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre

If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely,
positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or
breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of
violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely sure
that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will ever find
(or suggest) and "report" any violations in them.

For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because
most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this violation
is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably "OK" for
SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like running the
cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops" and little or
no thermalling for extended periods of time), because somebody may report
you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the same reason do not post
any wave flights on days when medium to high RH was observed at your flight
altitudes.

This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky,
knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything else
you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky.

if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?

That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3
hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score sheet
to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights. So keep in
mind what you might not want to post.

is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?

One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly
pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown
entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all.

K. Urban
--
Yuliy

Paul, with the greatest respect, you are wrong here. I do not fly in
the US but my pursuit of this issue is because I was a professional
pilot for most of my life and your attitude is quite unacceptable. You
and Doug seem to be almost deliberately obtuse in failing to see the
basic point:

It is NO PLACE of the SSA or any of its affiliates to decide whether a
breach of FARs has occurred. You have no operational enforcement role.
WRT the FARs you are just a bunch of vigilante busybodies.

Yet you continually make yourself judge and jury:
...many pilots that would never submit a flight that includes
an obvious FAR breach...

...The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of
flights ending after dark or at altitudes that break FARs...

...I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee asking pilots to remove
flights that break FARs...

...The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted
flights that break FARs...

...I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post
their flights...

If you agree that flights that break FARs should not be
on the OLC, please say so here....

This is NOT your role and the many professional pilots who are SSA
members will be unhappy if you start moving in on the FAA's territory.
The licence YOU use to fly a glider for fun is the licence THEY use to
earn a living.

In a mealy-mouthed attempt to have it both ways, you accept that the SSA
and your Committee are committed to stirring up FAA action against those
you decide have breached FARs but begin your post by saying "The SSA and
the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after anyone".

....Yet.

In most parts of the world this vigilantism would be seen as completely
unlawful and improper but I guess the US has different traditions and it
does seem to be a matter for debate in your country. You might notice
you're getting no support for your stance from the home of the OLC and
its neighbours.

The SSA has a perfect right to make whatever rules it likes for SSA-OLC
flights and to promulgate them as the rules for its competition but the
SSA (and, by extension, its OLC sub-committee) have no operational
responsibilities and is not in the business of saying that a flight is
in breach of FARs.

As I said in an earlier post, you do not even have the data to say that
a breach of FARs has occurred. A logger trace is only an official
record in your private competition. The real evidence for an SUA
boundary breach or 18000ft altitude exceedance or whether the glider
flew after sunset without lights is simply not available to you. Your
witch hunt is so important though that you want to reverse the onus of
proof and demand that anybody who YOU think MAY have breached FARs
should justify why they HAVEN'T.

Finally, It IS clear from your posts that the breach of FARs is not what
upsets you, it's the apparent unfair advantage you see some as getting
that really riles you. The previous poster ("KM")is correct - the US is
significantly more competitive about the OLC than it's originators
intended and your interpretation of Reiner's comment seems quite unlikely.

The solution to your problem is simple. you're on the SSA-OLC
committee. Make your own rules and declare the logger trace to be
evidence of a breach of YOUR RULES. Publish the rules AS THE RULES OF
YOUR COMP. Stop hiding behind FARs.

GC

Paul Remde wrote:

is discouraged.So this begs the question that if a pilot is not out to
win, why even post a flight on the SSA-OLC? How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US, and why did they change its intent?
Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs" and yet it ends with a statement that the SSA will
partner with the FAA to go after any pilot who violates the regs.This
same kind of mentality is expressed on the "OLC Sunset Warning"
elsewhere on the site.Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?

- The SSA and the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after
anyone. The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of flights ending
after dark or at altitudes that break FARs. The pilots that made the
reports thought the flights were not very sporting, not fair competition,
and worse, could make all other glider pilots look bad. The SSA-OLC
committee then did its job and asked the pilots to remove the flights from
this public forum. The SSA-OLC committee (I'm on it) would prefer to never
have to do that.

I think this forum is interesting because, in my opinion, the many pilots
that would never submit a flight that includes an obvious FAR breach are not
speaking up. They are tired of hearing the few outspoken pilots the seem to
be OK with pilots submitting flights that breach FARs. The silent majority
is hesitant to post their thoughts because they fear that the outspoken ones
will rip them appart for their opinon.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC. I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee
asking pilots to remove flights that break FARs. So should every glider
pilot that wants to keep the priveledge of using US airspace. The SSA-OLC
committee shoudn't need to ask the pilots to remove the flight logs that
break FARs, but if necessary, they will. The SSA-OLC committee does NOT go
looking for flights like that. They only look at flights that are brought
to their attention.

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.


Worse yet are the pilots that would not remove them when asked. They are
the ones taking the fun out of the OLC, not the SSA-OLC committee. They are
trying to make the SSA-OLC committee into the bad guys here. They are
shouting loudly and trying to mis-direct everyone. It makes me sick how
they are ruining such a great thing.

Silent majority, please speak up. If you agree that flights that break FARs
should not be on the OLC, please say so here.

Paul Remde

Bizarre
I have a backround as a check airman and safety inspector, and we
looked at rules violations from a standpoint of education and
prevention, not the punitive standpoint the SSA has.
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?
And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?
Thanks,
K. Urban

Andy wrote:
I apologize. This reply was intended to have been sent to Hank only
and not to the group.

No need to apologise. It's a very good point.

GC

Ramy wrote:
Doug, until this post you acted somewhat professionally, but you lost
it.
Here are my responses to your comments, then I'm out of this public
flaim war.
1 - I will email you privately the email. I would not post it
publically. I would never go as low as twisting someone words or take
them out of context. But I probably should have not quote him either.

I received your private email, and an explanation from Reiner Rose
directly. The issue they has was with the notification to the pilot,
not with the position on the FAR's. As I have already explained, the
notification in Ramy's case was delayed by the internal workings of the
all volunteer committee, but was under way. This is all new to us, so
we are trying our best to deal with the issues as the arise. SSA and
OLC are in agreement that all changes to claims require notification to
the pilot.

2 - I have absolutly no idea which flights you are claiming I posted to
Brazil. This is a complete BS. My last flight out of Truckee was on 9/4
and was posted to the SSA- OLC and I haven't been to Truckee since. It
was also the last flight I posted to OLC.

I must apologize to Ramy for this, it was the other pilot who made
these claims from Brazil. When I saw Ramy's post supporting this, I
mistakenly associated it with him.

Doug,

Thank you for all the work you are doing for the SSA-OLC and the SSA
website. Please don't let the critics get you down. There are by far more of
us who appreciate your work then there are critics!!!

Again, thank you.

Wayne

HP-14 "6F"

http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/N990_Near_Arco.jpg


"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
ups.com...
Andy, the USNO is the definitive authority on sunset time--there is no
arbitrary SSA definition of sunset. USNO makes online calculators
available that compute sunrise and sunset for any place, for a single
day, or a table for an entire year. So the data is easily accessible.

Now as far as what to do, the SSA policy is uniform for OLC, B&R and
contests--the flights are to be "disqualified". For contests, that
means zero points for the day, plus a possible penalty. For B&R it
means the claim is denied. For OLC, to be consistent with the
international practices, we request that the pilot remove the claim.

If you think this is too severe, you need to make that request to the
SSA Board. But I don't think they will accept that an "insignificant"
penalty is consistent with the SSA policy that FAR's must be observed.

Andy wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
So yes, we are talking about violations that are obvious in the IGC log
files, because that is the evidence we have. We don't have usable
evidence of cloud bases, so that
point is moot.

Doug,

I don't have any problem at all with rejecting flight logs that have
evidence of gross FAR violation.

All I have lobbied for is a more reasonable interpretation of the
sunset rule. I have stated that many, if not most, if not all, pilots
break some FARs and I get tired of the preaching from those that seem
to claim they never had a flight that ever broke one FAR.

End soaring flight at sunset and reject logs with gross violations of
the sunset rule and I'll say no more. Let the FAA decide if they want
to take enforcement action against a pilot that lands a few minutes
after sunset.

If you do that I don't care how you define sunset. The consequence of
landing a minute after SSA sunset time will be an insignificant number
of points.

Andy

Paul Remde a écrit :
Hi Denis,

I don't get your point. I recommend that all soaring pilots follow the
FARs, or the rules for their country - regardless of whether or not they
plan to submit the flights. However, when they do break the FARs (on
purpose or by accident), then it would be unsportsmanlike to submit the
flight.

I understand that flights logs which enter class A airspace should not
be filed* (unless there has been a ATC clearance). But I find strange to
put that rule of lights between sunset and sunset + 30' on the same
level than entering heavy croaded class A airspace...

*although it is the case of most flights filed in another OLC country -
but that's another debate

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making
some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote cross-country
flight.

I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from
you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it.

Paul Remde

"Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote in
message ...
KM,

Good points and observations,

"KM" wrote in message
ups.com...

I am new to the R.A.S

I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of the
loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my opinions
here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over R.A.S and
turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics.

we have a active Yahoo group
where pilots post flights during the season.

Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be
scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the
community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering
themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the
rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one will
tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from? Wow...
what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly lax here
on OLC since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule. Certainly
your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part. Good thing
you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed soon. What is
the URL?

This is not a contest, just
a way to report on the local happenings.

Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so different
is the "C" in its name.

judging by the gist of
most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for
educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest.

Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people
use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a
hard core contest.

How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US,

Beats me!

and why did they change its intent?

Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what we
see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you see.

Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs"

Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA
officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of
FARs".

Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre

If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely,
positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or
breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of
violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely
sure that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will ever
find (or suggest) and "report" any violations in them.

For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because
most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this
violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably "OK"
for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like
running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops"
and little or no thermalling for extended periods of time), because
somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the same
reason do not post any wave flights on days when medium to high RH was
observed at your flight altitudes.

This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky,
knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything
else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky.

if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?

That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3
hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score
sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights. So
keep in mind what you might not want to post.

is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?

One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly
pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown
entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all.

K. Urban
--
Yuliy

Hi Graeme,

The SSA-OLC committee is not out to get anyone or so send anything to the
FAA.

This is not a witch hunt.

You are correct that I miss your point. Or perhaps I just disagree with
you.

What really bugs me about this entire thing is that most pilots would never
intentionally post a flight that could get them in trouble, or make other
glider pilots look bad. It makes me very sad that a few pilots seem to want
to make all glider pilots look bad. It also makes me very sad that this
thread can't just be dropped because it is hurting the OLC and discouraging
cross-country flying.

Paul Remde


"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Paul, with the greatest respect, you are wrong here. I do not fly in the
US but my pursuit of this issue is because I was a professional pilot for
most of my life and your attitude is quite unacceptable. You and Doug
seem to be almost deliberately obtuse in failing to see the basic point:

It is NO PLACE of the SSA or any of its affiliates to decide whether a
breach of FARs has occurred. You have no operational enforcement role.
WRT the FARs you are just a bunch of vigilante busybodies.

Yet you continually make yourself judge and jury:
...many pilots that would never submit a flight that includes
an obvious FAR breach...

...The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of
flights ending after dark or at altitudes that break FARs...

...I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee asking pilots to remove
flights that break FARs...

...The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted
flights that break FARs...

...I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post
their flights...

If you agree that flights that break FARs should not be
on the OLC, please say so here....

This is NOT your role and the many professional pilots who are SSA members
will be unhappy if you start moving in on the FAA's territory. The licence
YOU use to fly a glider for fun is the licence THEY use to earn a living.

In a mealy-mouthed attempt to have it both ways, you accept that the SSA
and your Committee are committed to stirring up FAA action against those
you decide have breached FARs but begin your post by saying "The SSA and
the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after anyone".

...Yet.

In most parts of the world this vigilantism would be seen as completely
unlawful and improper but I guess the US has different traditions and it
does seem to be a matter for debate in your country. You might notice
you're getting no support for your stance from the home of the OLC and its
neighbours.

The SSA has a perfect right to make whatever rules it likes for SSA-OLC
flights and to promulgate them as the rules for its competition but the
SSA (and, by extension, its OLC sub-committee) have no operational
responsibilities and is not in the business of saying that a flight is in
breach of FARs.

As I said in an earlier post, you do not even have the data to say that a
breach of FARs has occurred. A logger trace is only an official record in
your private competition. The real evidence for an SUA boundary breach or
18000ft altitude exceedance or whether the glider flew after sunset
without lights is simply not available to you. Your witch hunt is so
important though that you want to reverse the onus of proof and demand
that anybody who YOU think MAY have breached FARs should justify why they
HAVEN'T.

Finally, It IS clear from your posts that the breach of FARs is not what
upsets you, it's the apparent unfair advantage you see some as getting
that really riles you. The previous poster ("KM")is correct - the US is
significantly more competitive about the OLC than it's originators
intended and your interpretation of Reiner's comment seems quite unlikely.

The solution to your problem is simple. you're on the SSA-OLC committee.
Make your own rules and declare the logger trace to be evidence of a
breach of YOUR RULES. Publish the rules AS THE RULES OF YOUR COMP. Stop
hiding behind FARs.

GC

Paul Remde wrote:

is discouraged.So this begs the question that if a pilot is not out to
win, why even post a flight on the SSA-OLC? How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US, and why did they change its intent?
Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs" and yet it ends with a statement that the SSA will
partner with the FAA to go after any pilot who violates the regs.This
same kind of mentality is expressed on the "OLC Sunset Warning"
elsewhere on the site.Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?

- The SSA and the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after
anyone. The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of flights
ending after dark or at altitudes that break FARs. The pilots that made
the reports thought the flights were not very sporting, not fair
competition, and worse, could make all other glider pilots look bad. The
SSA-OLC committee then did its job and asked the pilots to remove the
flights from this public forum. The SSA-OLC committee (I'm on it) would
prefer to never have to do that.

I think this forum is interesting because, in my opinion, the many pilots
that would never submit a flight that includes an obvious FAR breach are
not speaking up. They are tired of hearing the few outspoken pilots the
seem to be OK with pilots submitting flights that breach FARs. The
silent majority is hesitant to post their thoughts because they fear that
the outspoken ones will rip them appart for their opinon.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC. I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee
asking pilots to remove flights that break FARs. So should every glider
pilot that wants to keep the priveledge of using US airspace. The
SSA-OLC committee shoudn't need to ask the pilots to remove the flight
logs that break FARs, but if necessary, they will. The SSA-OLC committee
does NOT go looking for flights like that. They only look at flights
that are brought to their attention.

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC.
I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on
the OLC.


Worse yet are the pilots that would not remove them when asked. They are
the ones taking the fun out of the OLC, not the SSA-OLC committee. They
are trying to make the SSA-OLC committee into the bad guys here. They
are shouting loudly and trying to mis-direct everyone. It makes me sick
how they are ruining such a great thing.

Silent majority, please speak up. If you agree that flights that break
FARs should not be on the OLC, please say so here.

Paul Remde

Bizarre
I have a backround as a check airman and safety inspector, and we
looked at rules violations from a standpoint of education and
prevention, not the punitive standpoint the SSA has.
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?
And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?
Thanks,
K. Urban