"Guilty" of Flying the Wrong Pattern?

Jim Logajan wrote in
:

Newps wrote:
Government agencies are not required to abide by the FAR's. Many do
to make it easier on themselves but they are not required to.

That can't be right. At least not such a blanket exemption. All I can
find is some exemptions for certain operations mention in 5-6-3 of the
AIM.

Do you have a cite?

From the FAR 1.1 definitions:

Civil aircraft means aircraft other than public aircraft.

Public Aircraft:

(1) An aircraft used only for the United States Government; an aircraft
owned by the Government and operated by any person for purposes related to
crew training, equipment development, or demonstration; an aircraft owned
and operated by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or a
territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision of
one of these governments; or an aircraft exclusively leased for at least 90
continuous days by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or
a territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision
of one of these governments.

Look carefully at the start of FAR 61.3. Note that it only requires a
pilot certificate for a civil aircraft. It does NOT require a certificate
for a public aircraft.

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any
other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of
U.S. registry, unless that person—

(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization
issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily
accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot
certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within
a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which
the aircraft is operated may be used; and ...

As a mater of regulation, pilots of public aircraft do not have to
have a pilot's certificate. As a mater of policy, most governmental
agencies do require their pilots to have one or their own equivalent (eg.
the military).

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:51:37 -0700, Newps wrote
in :



Jay Beckman wrote:


IIRC, the rest of the story is that the pilot is a cop and was flying in the
performance of his duties. If he actually flew a wrong pattern, it was to
investigate something on the ground.

If he was actually a cop flying on duty he is not subject to the FAR's.

So LEOs truly are above the law (FAAOs in this case)! Is that in FAAO
7110.65 or where?

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:49:20 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote in
:

an aircraft owned
and operated by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or a
territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision of
one of these governments;


What would constitute a 'political subdivision' of a state? Would a
county, city, or town qualify, or does this official definition refer
to a state militia (eg California Highway Patrol)?

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

If he was actually a cop flying on duty he is not subject to the FAR's.

So LEOs truly are above the law (FAAOs in this case)!

LEOs aren't "above" laws that don't apply to them. Laws that are
only applicable to civilian, non-public aircraft are only applicable
to civilian, non-public aircraft.


Is that in FAAO 7110.65 or where?

It's in the applicability portion of the FAR

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:49:20 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote in
:

an aircraft owned
and operated by the government of a State, the District of Columbia,
or a territory or possession of the United States or a political
subdivision of one of these governments;


What would constitute a 'political subdivision' of a state? Would a
county, city, or town qualify, or does this official definition refer
to a state militia (eg California Highway Patrol)?



Federal agency, state, state department, county (parish in LA), city,
township, town, village. All are political subdivision's.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Marty Shapiro writes:

Public Aircraft:

(1) An aircraft used only for the United States Government; an aircraft
owned by the Government and operated by any person for purposes related to
crew training, equipment development, or demonstration; an aircraft owned
and operated by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or a
territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision of
one of these governments; or an aircraft exclusively leased for at least 90
continuous days by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or
a territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision
of one of these governments.

This definition excludes cities, and therefore excludes most police
departments.

As a mater of regulation, pilots of public aircraft do not have to
have a pilot's certificate.

But cops are not pilots of public aircraft, generally speaking, based
on the definition given above. They are civilian employees of cities,
not employees of the U.S. government or its States, territories, or
possessions, and their aircraft are presumably in the same category.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Marty Shapiro writes:

Federal agency, state, state department, county (parish in LA), city,
township, town, village. All are political subdivision's.

Cities and the like are corporations.

If any political subdivision on a map counts, then school teachers,
firefighters, garbage collectors, and a vast number of other people
can fly without certificates and ignore the FARs.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:49:20 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote in
:

an aircraft owned
and operated by the government of a State, the District of Columbia, or a
territory or possession of the United States or a political subdivision of
one of these governments;


What would constitute a 'political subdivision' of a state? Would a
county, city, or town qualify, or does this official definition refer
to a state militia (eg California Highway Patrol)?


Nope city and county counts as a political subdivision. This is how many
police departments are flying used OH-58s that don't have N numbers.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Cities and the like are corporations.

Do you have the slightest clue what a municipal corporation is
and why state law provides for it? Incessant, arrogant, ignorant
jibberish.

F--

Marty Shapiro wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
Newps wrote:
Government agencies are not required to abide by the FAR's. Many do
to make it easier on themselves but they are not required to.

That can't be right. At least not such a blanket exemption. All I can
find is some exemptions for certain operations mention in 5-6-3 of
the AIM.

Do you have a cite?

From the FAR 1.1 definitions:

Civil aircraft means aircraft other than public aircraft.
....
Look carefully at the start of FAR 61.3. Note that it only requires a
pilot certificate for a civil aircraft. It does NOT require a
certificate for a public aircraft.

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
....
As a mater of regulation, pilots of public aircraft do not have to
have a pilot's certificate. As a mater of policy, most governmental
agencies do require their pilots to have one or their own equivalent
(eg. the military).

Thanks for the cite. HOWEVER....

The some of the Flight Rules in part 91 appears to make _no_ distinction
between civil and public aircraft. Once airborne, the pilot of a public
aircraft still appears to be required to abide by some of the Flight Rules
under part 91. This seems to be the case because 91.1(a) specifically says
the part 91 Flight Rules apply to "aircraft" - note it has _no_ qualifiers.

So I still don't think that government agencies are not required to abide
by _all_ the FARs. Government agencies, including the military, are
presumably still rerquired to abide by all the FARs that use the
unqualified "aircraft" or "person" terminology. (It's a mixed-bag under
part 91; some FARs definitely refer to civil aircraft, others to all
aircraft.)