Winds A Factor In Lidle Crash

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

And frankly, those who refuse to recognize their own weaknesses go through life
with their head buried in their ass. (Ron Lee, this means you.)

Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Smooth move Mortimer. You can't deny that Lidle made a grossly stupid
move that any competent pilot could have avoided. What he did was
like me hitting Pikes Peak. So you just resort to name calling.

I probably fly more than most of the people here do (non-paid flying)
yet I don't kill myself or others because I am a safe pilot.

Ron Lee

"Grumman-581" wrote:

Did they ever mention what was the height of the building that they "became
one with"? Was it possible to overfly the building without busting the
Class-B? Turn off the Mode-C, go a bit above the Class-B, drop back down
and turn back on the Mode-C... At the very worst, bust the Class-B for a
second, drop back down, and hope no one notices... Even if they do, they
have to get your tail number... Take the "scenic route" home, stopping at
various airports along the way to confuse any tracking that they might do of
your aircraft... No matter what you do, it's got to be better than turning
your new fiberglass aircraft into a pile of shards...

Exactly. Busting Class B (not in the path of jets) is far better than
what they did. Better yet get a clearance to enter Class B. So IMO
that was not just a minor error than anyone here would have done (But
for the grace rationale), it was gross stupidity that left two
"pilots" dead.

Ron Lee

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:37:01 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote in
:

These two guys in the Cirrus had one of the moments I'm talking about
here.
They weren't stupid, and I'm sure they didn't want to die. They screwed
up,
and the numbers played out against them. Instead of having one of those
"experiences" I'm talking about, they didn't make it.

From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

A prudent pilot who mentally flew the route on the ground before
departing would stand a good chance of discovering this gotcha, and
planned one of the three actions mentioned above, or at least
calculated the turning radius of his aircraft beforehand.

Planning is the key.

Is there any evidence so far indicating they got a weather briefing
immediately before departure, and that the cross wind had been
observed and reported?

Disclaimer: Because of the limited amount of factual information
available at this time, and my complete lack of familiarity with the
location, my comments are primarily speculative as they relate to this
specific mishap.


Was there anything, other than traffic, that would have barred Lidle from
moving to the left side of the corridor and making a right turn into the
wind?

Shallow turns
encourage excess rudder and make it easy to get too slow.

Interesting. I'll keep that in mind upstairs.

Moreover, have you ever actually tried to stall/spin
when banked to greater than 45 degrees?

No, but I've made many such turns.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Was there anything, other than traffic, that would have barred Lidle from
moving to the left side of the corridor and making a right turn into the
wind?

Dunno, but if he wasn't thinking of wind (and 8 knots isn't much if
you're not in a narrow canyon) he may simply been keeping to the right,
like road traffic. I've done that turn before, racking a 150 over on
its wing, and thought nothing of it.

I do find it interesting how far off the three radars are. This raises
a question of how accurate they are considered to be as evidence in an
airspace bust. I do remember many years ago being accused of being a
mile off centerline when I was dead on on an approach in California.
The aircraft ahead was similarly accused - I assume their radar was out
of alignment.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Ron Lee wrote:
Smooth move Mortimer. You can't deny that Lidle made a grossly stupid
move that any competent pilot could have avoided. What he did was
like me hitting Pikes Peak. So you just resort to name calling.


No, I resorted to name calling because you did it first, and you picked a target
who couldn't answer. Nobody denies he made a mistake. It cost him a lot more
than yours did, so far. Didn't your mother teach you not to speak ill of the
dead?


I probably fly more than most of the people here do (non-paid flying)
yet I don't kill myself or others because I am a safe pilot.


No. You're an arrogant pilot. The two aren't the same thing. Luck will only
carry you so far.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

I probably fly more than most of the people here do (non-paid flying)
yet I don't kill myself or others because I am a safe pilot.


No. You're an arrogant pilot. The two aren't the same thing. Luck will only
carry you so far.

Here again you are wrong. I know I am safe and those who fly with me
will attest to that. You won't find me flying into a mountain canyon
hoping to do a fancy maneuver to escape impact...or flying to a Class
5 thunderstorm, or taking off with a load of ice on my wings.

Ron Lee

On 8 Nov 2006 09:18:02 -0600, T o d d P a t t i s t
wrote in
:

They'd have been able to make the turn
even more easily if they'd moved to the other side and
turned into the wind.

Too true. Which leads to the conclusion that they weren't aware of
the crosswind component, hadn't been briefed on the wind, or ...

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 21:13:26 -0500, "Peter Dohm"
wrote in
:

But, IMHO, there is a great deal of truth in "But for the grace of God ..."

While we are all occasionally victims of lapses in memory and
judgment, and subject to the vagaries of circumstances beyond our
control or best estimation, somehow the fatalistic tone of the phrase
"There but for the grace of God go I" seems capable of leading to
apathy toward flight preparation.

Because each of us is God-like to a greater or lesser extent, we are
capable of bestowing considerable grace upon ourselves through
thorough flight planning.

.... incorporating that aforementioned good judgment.

ISTM flying that route is not unlike choosing to fly up, more or less,
a slot canyon, at low altitude, without many reasonable answers to
"what if...?". http://i14.tinypic.com/43xzxb5.jpg

Maybe some training in flying canyons would be an appropiate
requirement for future pilots, or at least some reading of those
recommended procedures.

I think it may be overly generous to allow fixed-wing aircraft in that
corridor at all. The lack of "outs" would easily lead me to a "no-go"
decision under the best of other circumstances.

IMO, overconfidence bends the most airplanes, pilots and passengers.
-----

- gpsman

Which leads to the conclusion that they weren't aware of
the crosswind component, hadn't been briefed on the wind, or ...

.... didn't think it was significant. That's an easy mistake especially
for a new pilot in a fast airplane to make.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.