Safety pilot in and out of IMC

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:42:48 GMT, Jose wrote:

In the US, if you do not do this, you may not fly in IMC or under IFR
even in VMC (though you may fly VFR with a safety pilot and do
practice approaches in VMC).

You may fly under IFR; you just cannot act as PIC under IFR.

The pilot not flying can act as PIC, while you manipulate the controls.


--ron

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:15:35 GMT, Matt Young wrote:

Assuming you're talking about a typical single engine aircraft, or any
other that only requires one crew member, the one operating the controls
would be pic while taxiing regardless of what you plan on doing the rest
of the flight. The safety pilot is just a passenger when you don't have
the hood on (I'm assuming you don't wear it for taxi lol) because the
safety pilot is not a required crew member at this time. This is my
understanding based on what I have been taught.

You are close.

Under the (US) regulations, the safety pilot is not necessarily PIC at any
time, unless there is an agreement for him to be PIC.

However, he can be PIC at any time during the flight, even when taxiing and
the other pilot is manipulating the controls, if that is what the two
pilots agree upon (assuming the SP is qualified and current to act as PIC
in the a/c).

However, he may only LOG PIC time during that time when he is acting as
safety pilot.


--ron

5pguy wrote:

Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR
every 6 months to remain current. If you do this, you are allowed to
have
passengers while in IMC. This is legal. If you are outside "current"
; meaning
6 months and 1 day since you last fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can
only
fullfill this reg while in VFR conditions.

So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches
and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot
aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs.

This is what I was referring to for passengers. Your safty pilot is a
passenager, even thou they are PIC. That's my understanding. If you
are
outside of reg 61.57(c) (6 months, 6 approaches, hold and following the
VOR), then you must remain in VRF conditions.

While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the
following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I
were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is
responsible. Also, I was told that
the safty pilot must be "ok'd" by us ( the insurance company) prior you

your flight.

So, I contact my club. They then told me that I can not simply asking
another VFR pilot who is current to fly with me as a safty pilot. I
think
we were all told in IFR training, that any VFR current pilot of type
aircraft
was ok to use. The club said that I must get someone
from the club to be a safty piloty and yes, it must be cleared by
the club first. So I figured that if the club must ok it first,
then the insurance company must have cleared a list of safty pilots
for that club. Check it out with our insurance provider.


Wow, both a clueless club and a clueless insurance company. A
double-header! :-)


Matt

"5pguy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR
every 6 months to remain current. If you do this, you are allowed to
have passengers while in IMC.

If you're current, you are allowed to be PIC in IMC. Otherwise, you're not,
with or without passengers. Saying "if you're current, you're allowed to
have passengers while in IMC" is like saying "if you're current, you're
allowed to wear a green sweatshirt while in IMC"--it's technically true, but
only because you're allowed to be PIC in IMC at all (with whomever or
whatever you like).

If you are outside "current"; meaning
6 months and 1 day since you last fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can
only fullfill this reg while in VFR conditions.

No, that's incorrect. It's true that you can only be PIC in VFR conditions.
But you can still fly IFR to regain currency (or for any other purpose) if
another pilot (instructor or otherwise) is the PIC.

So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches
and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot
aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs.

No, that's legal if the safety pilot is PIC. Otherwise, it's not legal.

This is what I was referring to for passengers. Your safty pilot is a
passenager, even thou they are PIC. That's my understanding.

That's incorrect. If the other pilot is PIC, then *you're* the passenger,
even if you're doing the flying.

While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the
following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I
were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is
responsible.

*If* your safety pilot is PIC for the flight (which would have to be the
case if the flight is IFR and you aren't instrument-current), then indeed
the safety pilot is responsible for whatever occurs during the flight
(including while taxiing). He's responsible in that case not because he's
the safety pilot, but because he's PIC.

The club said that I must get someone
from the club to be a safty piloty and yes, it must be cleared by
the club first.

That's sensible. The safety pilot is a required crew member (whether PIC or
not), so the club should be as careful about authorizing safety pilots as
they are about authorizing PICs.

--Gary

Matt Young wrote:
Assuming you're talking about a typical single engine aircraft, or any
other that only requires one crew member, the one operating the controls
would be pic while taxiing regardless of what you plan on doing the rest
of the flight.

The regs only say who is qualified to be PIC for a given flight, they
don't say who *is* PIC. If there are two qualified pilot, they need to
decide between themselves who is PIC.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:47:06 GMT, wrote:

However, he can be PIC at any time during the flight, even when taxiing and
the other pilot is manipulating the controls, if that is what the two
pilots agree upon (assuming the SP is qualified and current to act as PIC
in the a/c).

However, he may only LOG PIC time during that time when he is acting as
safety pilot.

(assuming he is also acting as PIC)

Well, I thought that was implied when I stated "that is what the two pilots
agree upon", but maybe it was not.


--ron

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 00:54:38 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:36:03 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:47:06 GMT, wrote:

However, he can be PIC at any time during the flight, even when taxiing and
the other pilot is manipulating the controls, if that is what the two
pilots agree upon (assuming the SP is qualified and current to act as PIC
in the a/c).

However, he may only LOG PIC time during that time when he is acting as
safety pilot.

(assuming he is also acting as PIC)

Well, I thought that was implied when I stated "that is what the two pilots
agree upon", but maybe it was not.


--ron


Well, an "also" would have helped, but what I added is incomplete as
well, since the regulations only allow the logging when the safety
pilot is "required under the regulations".

Presumably, during taxi, a safety pilot is not required, therefore he
is unable to log any time, no matter what else is happening or what
agreements exist.

But is he a "safety pilot" when not required by regulations? I think not.
--ron

Ron Rosenfeld Dec 19, 4:34 am show options


Regs require IFR pilots to fly 6 approaches, a hold and follow a VOR
every 6 months to remain current.


Not quite. There is no requirement to "follow a VOR". You are probably
thinking of the requirement to intercept and track a course using
navigation systems. There is no requirement that the navigation system
be
a VOR.

Yes, I was thinking "tracking". Thanks for the correction.

If you do this, you are allowed to have passengers while in IMC.

Not necessarily. The rules for carrying passengers are different from
the
rules for acting as PIC under IFR. If you have not done at least three
takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days, you would not be
allowed to
have passengers in IMC even if you are current instruments as you
describe.

Ron - So, I was focusing on passengers in IMC and had forgotten to
mention the 90 day rule. I was only thinking the 180 day rule.

If you are outside "current"; meaning 6 months and 1 day since you
last
fullfilled reg 61.57(c), then you can only fullfill this reg while in

VFR conditions.

Again, not quite. There is no requirement in the regs that currency
must
be done in VFR conditions. You are probably confused by the fact that
this
non-current pilot cannot act as PIC under IFR. This prohibition would
be
true regardless of the weather conditions. However, there is no
requirement that this pilot be acting as PIC when fulfilling the
currency
requirement for flying IFR.

Yes, but my reply was to the original poster of flying in and out of
IMC
with a safty pilot. If an IFR pilot had not met reg 61.57(c) of ...

(i) At least six instrument approaches;
(ii) Holding procedures; and
(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation
systems.

in the past 180 days, and then asking someone to be their SP, in IMC
conditions is not within the regs. This is "assuming" they have met
the 90 day requirment. Removing the fact that CFII's are not in this
formula as well. True, they don't need a SP when outisde the 180 days,
but they can't have a passenger until 61.57(c) has been met.


So, if a pilot is "in and out" of IMC while doing their 6 approaches
and they are outside of the 6 month period and they have a safty pilot
aboard, that pilot is not flying within the regs.

Again, not quite. There is nothing in the regulations precluding the
safety pilot from being designated as PIC under these circumstances
(provided the SP is qualified to do so). If that is the case, there is
no
regulation being broken.

Correct Ron, but the poster did not disclose this information.



While talking to the insurance company, they informed me of the
following in general conversation... The safty pilot is PIC and if I
were taxing and dinged another aircraft, the safty pilot is
responsible. Also, I was told that the safty pilot must be "ok'd"
by us ( the insurance company) prior you your flight.

That is purely an insurance company regulation without basis in the
FAR's.
My insurer does have an open pilot specification. Many do, some don't.

I brought up insurance because pilots that I talk to, never thought
about
ckecking with their insurance company regarding SP coverage. Yes,
nothing to do with the regs.

Thanks Ron for bringing more in depth discussion into this thread.

On 19 Dec 2004 20:33:46 -0800, "5pguy" wrote:

....

I think there may be some disconnects here due to imprecision in writing,
although there may be some conceptual issues also.

There are a number of things one may not do in IMC if one is not "IFR
current". He can't carry elephants in the airplane for hire, either.

But the salient point is that one may not act as PIC under IFR, even solo.
So in his original scenario, the reason he could not accomplish it was NOT
because he was arguably carrying a passenger, but rather because he could
not act as PIC under IFR.

Note also that there is a difference between IMC and IFR. IMC refers only
to the weather conditions. IFR refers to the rules under which the flight
is conducted.

So the non-current instrument pilot may not act as PIC in an aircraft
flying under IFR, even if the weather is VMC.

With regard to OP, the only way he could legally accomplish his described
flight, would be if the SP were acting as PIC. Obviously, in order for the
SP to act as PIC, he must be qualified to do so. And, realistically, the
SP would have to be acting as PIC for the entire flight since, as I read
the scenario, the flight would have to be conducted under IFR. (Not
necessarily IMC for the entire flight, but certainly IFR for the entire
flight).

(Let's please not get into the purely hypothetical of cancelling IFR
whenever it is legal VFR, and refiling before the weather becomes IMC
again).

I would be surprised if the insurance policy had a clause specifically
mentioning "safety pilot". It is more likely that the policy has a clause
regulating who may act as PIC, and the club has a policy (or a
misinterpretation of the regulations) indicating that a safety pilot must
be PIC.

....onward through the fog...
--ron

wrote in message
...
On 18 Dec 2004 21:24:47 -0800, "5pguy" wrote:
A pilot is njot allowed to even file an IFR flight plan if he is not
current,

Where did you get that?