O2 Concentrator instead of O2 tank

You would not net any additional oxygen from the concentrator...



Think of the concentrator as a splitter.. it sends the nitrogen down one
tube (a waste port).. and the remaining oxygen down the supply port to
the pilot/patient/person whatever.

You arent creating anything new, or creating mass.... (so no physical
laws are broken)

but you ARE directing a stream of concentrated, nearly pure oxygen down
a supply tube at flow rates of up to 3-4 liters per minute.

you ARE increasing the overall inspired fraction of oxygen to the person
who inhales this gas stream. The oxygen doesnt know and doesnt carehow
it got there. Doesnt matter if its concentrated from an ambient air
source at near ambient pressure (conentrator)..... or if its
cryodistilled, vaporized, compressed to 2200 psi, then stored, shipped,
reduced to 25-50 psi working pressure before its returned to near
ambient pressure (tank).

Dave

Ron Natalie wrote:
Bill Denton wrote:

At altitude, the air still contains 21% oxygen. But since the air is
"thinner", it contains less oxygen than does the air at sea level.

So removing the nitrogen doesn't actually provide any additional oxygen at
altitude.

The "amount" of oxygen is of little importance. The thing that controls
perfusion is the partial pressure of O2.


Working in very round numbers, if you'd accept the total pressure of the
atmosphere at sea level to be 15 psi, the partial pressure of oxygen would be 3
psi (20% of 15). At around 18,000 feet, the total atmospheric pressure is cut
in half, so the partial pressure of oxygen at that altitude would be about 1.5
psi. You need to come up with another 1.5 psi of oxygen to bring it up to an
equivalence with what we breath a sea level.

I'm not exactly sure how a concentrator would work since I'm foggy about its
operation. Even dealing with bottled oxygen, you don't get to assume a simple
mathematical relationship because the cannula just adds pure O2 to what blows up
your nose... but it doesn't exclude ambient air.

I'm finding this whole thread confusing. Maybe I need a hit of O2?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Larry Dighera writes:

And if I recall correctly, above 25,000' a pressure mask or cabin
pressurization are required due to human physiology.

The physiological requirements for whole-body pressurization are much
less stringent than those for oxygen, but there is a lot of individual
variation. Some people are so sensitive to altitude that they can
become sick during a ride in an ordinary airliner at 8000' cabin
altitude. Some will get sick just from visiting Denver. Others
(usually after a period of gradual adaptation) are still okay at
28,000 feet.

Here's another quote:

At 20,000 ft. the absolute pressure altitude drops to 6.75 psia.
and the oxygen pressure drops to 1.38 psia. This is less than half
that at sea level. Oxygen saturation of the blood drops to 62 to
64% at this pressure altitude. Unconscious collapse and/or
convulsions will result within 10 to 15 minutes of exposure. Death
is not uncommon as a result of complications acquired from long or
quickly changing exposures to low partial pressures (high
altitudes) without supplemental oxygen or pressurized cabins.

This is a matter of oxygen, not pressure. With plenty of oxygen,
20,000 feet will not necessarily do any harm at all, depending on the
individual. People with CV and respiratory problems should avoid high
altitudes, though.

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Mortimer Schnerd, RN schrieb:

I'm finding this whole thread confusing. Maybe I need a hit of O2?

It is confusing because (nearly) everybody uses ambiguous words (1) and
nobody's cared so far to describe the setup which he assumes (2).

1) concentration, amount, pressure, when all which matters is partial
pressure of O2.

2) At which point does the concentrator extract N2 from the air and
where does he blow the "O2-concentrated" air? How is that "concentrated"
O2 provided: Via a Cannula which adds a stream of O2 to inhaled ambient
air? Via a closed mask? Into the cabin as a whole? etc.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:

2) At which point does the concentrator extract N2 from the air and
where does he blow the "O2-concentrated" air? How is that "concentrated"
O2 provided: Via a Cannula which adds a stream of O2 to inhaled ambient
air? Via a closed mask? Into the cabin as a whole? etc.

The concentrator provides between 85 to 95 % oxygen (depending on
flow rate) at essentially the ambient pressure (at least at sea level).

The thing uses a compressor internally to bring the pressure up to about
20 PSI to force it through the filters that do the separation. The unit
functions pretty well up to 18,000' according to stuff I've seen (you
really want a pressure system after that anyhow). Part of the issue
is they do tend to operate at higher temperatures as the pump has to
work harder.

Dave S wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote:
If you don't increase the concentration of oxygen, but are merely
removing N, the partial pressure of the oxygen will not increase.

Sure it would, Jim. It works at sea level and it works at 20,000 feet.
The concentrator has no way of knowing its at altitude in a plane and
"isnt supposed to work".


Why are we having this argument? Is it not true that people use
concentrators at altitude in unpressurized planes and they don't pass
out? If that is the case, and it is my understanding that it is, then
they must work. So what is the argument about?


--
Chris W
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"Chris W" wrote in message
news

Why are we having this argument? Is it not true that people use concentrators
at altitude in unpressurized planes and they don't pass out? If that is the
case, and it is my understanding that it is, then they must work. So what is
the argument about?

It beats me. I have sat in a 10,000 foot cabin pressure in an airliner and
monitored my wife's blood ox sats with and without the concentrator. I can tell
you for sure that a concentrator works just fine under that situation.

Vaughn

I believe airline cabin pressure is somewhat below 10,000 ft...



"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Chris W" wrote in message
news

Why are we having this argument? Is it not true that people use
concentrators
at altitude in unpressurized planes and they don't pass out? If that is
the
case, and it is my understanding that it is, then they must work. So
what is
the argument about?

It beats me. I have sat in a 10,000 foot cabin pressure in an
airliner and
monitored my wife's blood ox sats with and without the concentrator. I
can tell
you for sure that a concentrator works just fine under that situation.

Vaughn

Chris W writes:

Why are we having this argument?

Because this is USENET.

Is it not true that people use
concentrators at altitude in unpressurized planes and they don't pass
out? If that is the case, and it is my understanding that it is, then
they must work. So what is the argument about?

See above.

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Bill Denton writes:

I believe airline cabin pressure is somewhat below 10,000 ft...

It's 8000 feet at most, IIRC. Still, it's not the cabin pressure that
matters, it's the oxygen content. With an oxygen-enriched atmosphere,
you can go a lot higher in cabin pressure for a lot longer.

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