IFR ticket vs. professional training (MD, PhD...)

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

G. Sylvester wrote:
Look at it this way.
PPL Ground school: one term, one class. Practical experience to get
ready to test: about the equivalent in
hours of one class, one term.
Instrument rating: An additional class one term for flight and one
class for books.


Another point I forgot to make originally was that most classes you
take during undergraduate and even graduate programs have no value
to your final profession. I took 7 semesters of math above calculus.
When was the last time I took a derivative? Ummm, a long time ago.
I use the concept but I certainly didn't need 7 semesters of math.
So with PPL and so far with the IFR, 95% of everything you learn is
practical and therefore the training is a lot more efficient.

Yes, don't confuse education with training. A college degree is
intended to educate you, not train you. Pilot training is definitely
training.


Matt

Absolutely. Most of my college professors were pleased when you refused
to accept something and insisted on digging deeper (even if that meant
forcing them to defend their claim). Most flight instructors I've known
get ****ed if you question their authority. Could be because most of
them learned by rote the stuff that they're teaching and couldn't defend
it if they tried.

The most important thing to learn is how to learn. Once you know how to
apply your brain and find the appropriate reference material, you can
teach yourself anything.

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:12:50 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

Most flight instructors I've known
get ****ed if you question their authority. Could be because most of
them learned by rote the stuff that they're teaching and couldn't defend
it if they tried.


Most likely.

Hi Gerald,
As I sat yesterday and watched my wife get another sonogram on our now
T-minus-12-weeks old fetus, your post came to mind.

The Field of Medicine is very complex and covers a wide variety of
topics. To become a physician, one must go through years of rigorous
training, from learning theory like the scientific method, to techniques
like suturing, to learning biology to be able to recognize and put
together the pieces of that puzzle - the human body and spirit.

There's no question in my mind that it requires an inordinate amount of
discipline, training, wisdom, and talent to become a doctor, let alone a
good one. It can barely be compared to what it takes to become a pilot.

A better comparison might be to the Sonogram Technician who took the
beautiful pictures of my unborn child.

She sat in front of what is basically a PC with a trackball and a few
extra buttons. She took a small handheld echo transceiver device and
pushed it onto my wife's belly as she watched the pictures on the
screen, and used the trackball and buttons to measure and take pictures
of the various parts of the baby's body - the head, abdomen, femur,
heart, kidneys, diaphragm, even the aorta and certain blood vessels.

Your friend's statement that "flying is probably more like driving and
anybody can do it" is not untrue. By the same token, doing a complete
biophysical on a fetus with a sonogram is probably just like surfing the
web, and anyone can do that too. For that matter, anyone who can cut
their steak at dinner can probably use a scalpel. But does that really
qualify them to be a brain surgeon?

The technique for flying a trimmed plane straight and level is not very
different from driving. I might even say it's easier than driving. But
there is much more to being a pilot than flying a trimmed plane straight
and level. Just as there is much more to being a sonogram technician
than being able to swivel a trackball, push a button, and have an
opposable thumb to hold the echo transceiver.

A sonogram technician needs to know how to navigate the images she sees
on her screen and use the control surfaces properly to ensure that she
gets the pictures that are required. She needs to be able to recognize
anomolies to ensure that if something is not correct, she gets the right
pictures so the MD can properly diagnose it. She needs to learn a series
of rules and procedures for ensuring the privacy, security, and safety
of the patient who she is working on.

In the same way. a pilot needs to be able to navigate so he knows how
to find point B after leaving point A. He needs to be educated in a
large number of laws and procedures for making sure he gets there
safely. He needs to be able to recognize a variety of anomolies - from
crosswind operations to engine fires, and deal with them properly. He
needs to know how to communate with

Even for driving, many of the same skills are required - navigation,
rules and procedures, safety, even communication (eg: turn signals).
However, because we all do so much driving, I think we take it for
granted.

So next time you talk to your MD friend, ask him why anyone who knows
how to trim the fat off of a piece of steak couldn't do his job. And
maybe for a moment, his ego will stand aside and he'll realize that when
it comes down to it, we're all just people learning skills that most
anyone can do if they acquire the same knowledge and experience.



"G. Sylvester" wrote in
m:


I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying.

My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs
in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters
after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and
about 33 hours into my IFR ticket. I should be able to complete
it in under 45 so I'm probably ahead of the curve but a I gotta put
much of this on my book and mental preparation before each
flight and ahead of time that others didn't commit to. I plan
on doing this for the challenge, excitement and unique lifestyle
of being a pilot. I might, in fact, probably will become a CFI(I)
but not full time. We'll see. If someone pays me $10 (or better
yet $500,000) to fly their challenger or Citation to wherever I want
to go, I'll consider. ;-) I've been in professional challenging
situations and none have come close to IFR in IMC.

Overall, my flying experience is just like everyone elses. It is
challenging but by the time you get your ticket and after that
still challenging as it is a never ending battle with learning to stay
ahead of the plane.
The IFR ticket is definitely a step above that as the consequences
is a LOT greater. It is a licence to kill and there is a NEVER ending
true battle with learning everything to save the asses to which the
plane is strapped to. IFR is and will always be for me, the
non-professional, challenging. Certainly after my training, my head
hurts from the concentration level required. All of this is
absolutely impossible to explain to a non-pilot...even a non-IFR pilot
it is difficult.

Back to the original question. This person I had the discussion with
is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and
anybody can do it. This person is the typical MD, their way is the
only way and they
are the only ones who do it right and no one else can comprehend (I
work for a medical device company and have dealt with hundreds of
neurosurgeons, oncologists and medical physicists around the world).

So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying
VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued
training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No
need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular
I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees.

Gerald Sylvester

There's no question in my mind that it requires an inordinate amount of
discipline, training, wisdom, and talent to become a doctor, let alone a
good one. It can barely be compared to what it takes to become a pilot.

another fallacy is that all doctors are good because they have had all
this training. Doctors are just like lawyers, pilots and Indian Chiefs.
10% are great, 30% are good, 40% are not good and 10% are horrible.
I might be optimistic side if you asked a doctor. From my undergrad
department where about 55 out of 70 went to med school (13 others
to gradual school sic), most I'd avoid like the plague.

I've literally witnessed 2 rad onc's almost get into a fist fight
when contouring a tumor with each drawing entire different volumes.
I've also witnessed a major hospital failing to pre-plan a patient
and realizing the patient had tons of tumors. I literally counted
17 obvious tumors with a quick glance at the MR images. When the
rad onc was told this, they said "well lets treat some of them."
Both of these were at major hospitals. I guess the take home message
is, be carefuly who you get in a plane with and be careful who
you choose as your doctor. Some of the best aren't flying 744's and
some aren't at the biggest of hospitals.

ok, enough of this thread. I got what I wanted. Thanks everyone.

Gerald

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:29:43 GMT, "G. Sylvester"
wrote:

another fallacy is that all doctors are good because they have had all
this training. Doctors are just like lawyers, pilots and Indian Chiefs.
10% are great, 30% are good, 40% are not good and 10% are horrible.
I might be optimistic side if you asked a doctor. From my undergrad
department where about 55 out of 70 went to med school (13 others
to gradual school sic), most I'd avoid like the plague.


Like the old joke goes -

What do they call the guy who graduated last in medical school?

Ans: "Doctor"

Incidentally, the same goes for pilots.

Some of the young guys I've seen who have gone on to be commuter
pilots are not guys whose flying judgment I feel I would like to bet
my life on.

Standard medical quip: In any given medical school class, the top third
will make the best researchers; the middle third will make the best
teachers; the bottom third will make the most money. Fits my
observations pretty closely.

David

wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:29:43 GMT, "G. Sylvester"
wrote:


another fallacy is that all doctors are good because they have had all
this training. Doctors are just like lawyers, pilots and Indian Chiefs.
10% are great, 30% are good, 40% are not good and 10% are horrible.
I might be optimistic side if you asked a doctor. From my undergrad
department where about 55 out of 70 went to med school (13 others
to gradual school sic), most I'd avoid like the plague.



Like the old joke goes -

What do they call the guy who graduated last in medical school?

Ans: "Doctor"

Incidentally, the same goes for pilots.

Some of the young guys I've seen who have gone on to be commuter
pilots are not guys whose flying judgment I feel I would like to bet
my life on.

In article ,
David Kazdan wrote:

Standard medical quip: In any given medical school class, the top third
will make the best researchers; the middle third will make the best
teachers; the bottom third will make the most money. Fits my
observations pretty closely.

I was once at a party and found myself talking to a medical student. He
was going on about how most students don't keep up with current changes
in the field. At first I thought he was talking about reading journals,
going to seminars, and such, but then he said something like, "For
example, I've figured out that sports medicine is where the big money is
going to be in the next few years".

G. Sylvester wrote:

There's no question in my mind that it requires an inordinate amount
of discipline, training, wisdom, and talent to become a doctor, let
alone a good one. It can barely be compared to what it takes to become
a pilot.


another fallacy is that all doctors are good because they have had all
this training. Doctors are just like lawyers, pilots and Indian Chiefs.
10% are great, 30% are good, 40% are not good and 10% are horrible.
I might be optimistic side if you asked a doctor. From my undergrad
department where about 55 out of 70 went to med school (13 others
to gradual school sic), most I'd avoid like the plague.

And the really scary part is that many (most?) medical schools grade on
a pass/fail basis so it is hard to tell the good from the bad until
they've placed a number of corpses in the morgue. My wife formerly
worked for the pathology department of a local hospital and the stories
she can tell are scary.


Matt