Sectional use

Hotels and restaurants? I hope that's not the beginning
of a bad trend.

Actually, that's part of Garmin's automotive GPS that has "slopped
over" into the aviation side. It's nice to have, once in a great
while.

Too bad that a simple lack of electricity can make it all
disappear in an instant.

Well, let's see. I'd have to lose my alternator/battery/engine,
followed by the rechargeable batteries in the Garmin, PLUS the
alkaline batteries in the Lowrance. Nothing short of the EMP from a
nuclear explosion could take ALL of that out, so I think I'm pretty
safe, till Osama's buddies get nukes.

;-)

Do you continue to use these to keep in practice?

Oh, sure. My last biennial flight review was ALL VOR tracking, for no
apparent reason. There's really nothing too complex about tracking to
a VOR, and chart reading is fairly basic stuff, too.

Am I as good at it as I was when that's ALL we had to navigate with?
Nope. But that's to be expected. I'm not much good with DOS anymore,
either.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The plane I fly is a 70s-era Warrior with VOR+DME only. And the DME is
flaky. At some point I'll step up to one of the FBO's new glass-cockpit
Cessnas, but I'm having fun in the Warrior now.

Hey, what you're flying with now is all we had when I learned to fly.
I know that sounds like a million years ago, but it was only 1994.

We've come a VERY long way in those 13 years.

Don't assume that everybody has the latest & greatest toys in their
planes. Some of us are doing it other ways, and still having fun with it.

I don't consider the Lowrance 2000c to be the "latest & greatest"
anymore, and that GPS unit is more than plenty to relegate your
sectional to back-up status for VFR flights. It's got tons of
information stored in it. .

Not that flying by pilotage isn't fun. Many of our "regular" flights
are done simply by aiming for "the smokestack" on the horizon, or by
connecting lakes end to end. But that STILL doesn't require a
sectional anymore, which was my original point.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:


What's a "sectional"?

ducking!

Seriously, how many here still use them for primary navigation? I
honestly can't say I know anyone who does, anymore.

I can't imagine allowing pilotage skills to get rusty. First, it relates
to the basics of flying that drew many of us to the arena in the first
place. Secondly, I guess I don't have the absolute faith in electronic
gadgets that some have, particularly after losing all power on a night
cross country once. I know someone who went into the boonies (on land)
depending on GPS without paying attention to compass and map and was
desperately lost when the GPS batteries went south. I like to use
pilotage and/or map skills with technology as backup in VFR or
on-the-ground activities.

Jay Honeck writes:

Actually, that's part of Garmin's automotive GPS that has "slopped
over" into the aviation side. It's nice to have, once in a great
while.

Does that mean that the database errors on the automotive side have
slipped into Garmin's aviation databases as well?

Next thing you know, the GPS will be displaying tiny advertisements as
you fly.

Well, let's see. I'd have to lose my alternator/battery/engine,
followed by the rechargeable batteries in the Garmin, PLUS the
alkaline batteries in the Lowrance. Nothing short of the EMP from a
nuclear explosion could take ALL of that out, so I think I'm pretty
safe, till Osama's buddies get nukes.

You're very trusting.

It's interesting that people tend to be distrustful of new technology,
unless they find it entertaining and interesting, in which case they
often become suddenly willing to overlook the risks.

Oh, sure. My last biennial flight review was ALL VOR tracking, for no
apparent reason. There's really nothing too complex about tracking to
a VOR, and chart reading is fairly basic stuff, too.

Maybe, but I hear rumors about new pilots being practically unable to
use these methods once they have their GPS glowing at them in the
cockpit, even though they presumably learned about them and used them
at some point in their training. What you don't use, you lose.

Am I as good at it as I was when that's ALL we had to navigate with?
Nope. But that's to be expected. I'm not much good with DOS anymore,
either.

Do you really think VORs and NDBs are as irrelevant today as DOS?

Which is easier to jam: a network of VORs and NDBs, or a satellite
signal?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:


You're very trusting.

It's interesting that people tend to be distrustful of new technology,
unless they find it entertaining and interesting, in which case they
often become suddenly willing to overlook the risks.

GPS is not new. It's just the newest.



Oh, sure. My last biennial flight review was ALL VOR tracking, for no
apparent reason. There's really nothing too complex about tracking to
a VOR, and chart reading is fairly basic stuff, too.

Maybe, but I hear rumors about new pilots being practically unable to
use these methods once they have their GPS glowing at them in the
cockpit, even though they presumably learned about them and used them
at some point in their training. What you don't use, you lose.

In my 1200+ hours of flying I haven't used a VOR for more than 10 hours.
But any idiot can track to or from a station. You don't lose that.





Do you really think VORs and NDBs are as irrelevant today as DOS?

For VFR flying? No question about it. Almost totally irrelavant.




Which is easier to jam: a network of VORs and NDBs, or a satellite
signal?

Irrelavant.

Newps writes:

GPS is not new. It's just the newest.

It's also very different. The way it works is different, the way it
is used is different, and its failure modes are different. It hasn't
been around long enough for the failure modes to be fully sorted out.
Unfortunately it is also very seductive, and certainly the concept and
the implementation are generally sound.

Irrelavant.

Hardly. Jamming a GPS signal would be a very effective way to carry
out a terrorist attack, and the terrorists wouldn't have to go
anywhere near an airport. The more dependent aircraft become on GPS,
and the less able they are to resort to alternatives, the greater the
vulnerability to this type of attack.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Newps writes:

GPS is not new. It's just the newest.

It's also very different.


Well, duh. Using lighted beacons was very different than using a map.
Then NDB's, then VOR's. Then LORAN. They're all different.


The way it works is different, the way it
is used is different, and its failure modes are different.


You have anything other than the obvious to say?



It hasn't
been around long enough for the failure modes to be fully sorted out.



We're talking VFR here. What you're saying is just drivel.




Unfortunately it is also very seductive, and certainly the concept and
the implementation are generally sound.

Yawn.




Irrelavant.

Hardly. Jamming a GPS signal would be a very effective way to carry
out a terrorist attack,


It would accomplish nothing.

On Jan 27, 8:50 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Seriously, how many here still use them for primary navigation? I
honestly can't say I know anyone who does, anymore.

Although we always carry current sectionals (we sell them at the inn,
so I have NO excuse not to), I can't remember the last time I opened
one. I think it was to check an AWOS frequency ahead, cuz Mary was
futzing with the 496's XM music screen...

Since we filed IFR for almost all of our cross country trips, we
don't use the sectionals for primary navigation. However, we use
them in conjunction with IFR planning map and AOPA flight planner for
trip planning. If the weather is marginal, we will pick IFR routes
over more hospitable terrain based on the information from the
sectionals. During our flights, we use both IFR enroute maps and the
sectionals and of course the Lowrance Airmap 1000. It's nice to have
an overview of terrain below and ahead. This is something that the
small GPS screen can not provide. We also use the sectionals to find
AWOS frequencies along the route for weather monitoring. Bottom line
is that sectional is still an indispensable part of our flying.

Hai Longworth

It's interesting that people tend to be distrustful of new technology,
unless they find it entertaining and interesting, in which case they
often become suddenly willing to overlook the risks.

I think you're forgetting that it takes forever for all the old stuff
to go away -- at least not in America. Even though I rarely turn them
on, I've got dual VORs in the panel, with dual glide-slope indicators,
and (until last month) I still had DME, too. (I yanked it out, and
gained 10 pounds of useful load...)

Relying on GPS for VFR flying is only a "risk" if you believe that
everything else fails, too. IFR flying, flying an approach to
minimums in ice, now THAT is a different story.

However, even with IFR the situational awareness and accuracy of GPS
is so markedly improved that I really don't know any "hard" IFR pilots
who *don't* rely on GPS anymore. Every one of the pilots I know who
routinely fly IFR relies heavily on GPS technology now -- and that's
only proper.

This progression has many parallels in the consumer world. Think NDB
= 8-tracks, VOR = Cassette tapes, GPS = Compact Disks, GPS/WAAS =
DVDs.

Do you really think VORs and NDBs are as irrelevant today as DOS?

Yep. Heck, they've already removed the NDB approaches from most of
the airports in our area. VORs will hang in there a few more
decades, but they will soon go the way of the light beacons.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 28 Jan 2007 05:09:48 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


Do you really think VORs and NDBs are as irrelevant today as DOS?

Yep. Heck, they've already removed the NDB approaches from most of
the airports in our area. VORs will hang in there a few more
decades, but they will soon go the way of the light beacons.


The NDB's in my area are decommissioned as they require maintenance.